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Cameras, Lenses and Accessories: Discuss 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma...Totally stuck on what to get next, got some live gig stuff to shoot soon and a couple of social ...
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Old 28-06-2006, 14:38   #1 (permalink)
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17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Totally stuck on what to get next, got some live gig stuff to shoot soon and a couple of social gatherings, and some portraits. Hopefully looking to get the 100-400L this year because i dabble a bit now and then in wildlife(ducks ,swans etc) im no andy rouse though! so looking for a zoom that would be of a good focal length. the 24-105 IS f4L is looking good length wise but is f4 too slow for live gigs etc.(would the IS help there?)or should i get the tamron 28-75 2.8 that has been recommended by Steve and work my way up from that. Not deperate for the 100-400 so can put that off for now. Trouble was my first purchase was the L, now ive got the craving, can always sell a kidney or two to fund it.,
tamron 28-200 i have on the 10D hunts a lot so bit warey of going down 3 party sigma/ tamron route. the 17-40 is wide enough for me so looking for something to kick on from the 50mm

cheers Scott
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Old 28-06-2006, 15:00   #2 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Hi asd - my twopenneth. I haven't got one (wish-list) but the 100-400 does need good light, and then it's as sharp as a tack. I know you've got the 50mm but I would have thought that would be the best bet providing you can move around. Then you can put your cash towards the 100-400.

Anyway, regarding the other lenses you mentioned I'll let somebody else comment. One other thought - whats high ISO like on the 10D, you can always up it.
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Old 28-06-2006, 16:26   #3 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Can't comment on Canon Lenses, but another option based on your need for fast lens for Gigs, but need for a zoom for outdoors, might be to go for decent fast glass (f/2.8) normal zoom & then purchase a teleconvertor of either 1.4x or 2x. Although you will lose some stops, it may still be fast enough for outside use ?
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Old 28-06-2006, 16:43   #4 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Foudn the thread where I was looking at multiple use of 1 lens here :- http://www.pixalo.com/community/came...rtor-4409.html

Although for the Sigma 150mm macro f/2.8, you get a jist of what I'm on about....I hope
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Old 28-06-2006, 19:46   #5 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

thanks for the input fellas,the 10D is quite noisy at higher ISO's, compared with 350D/20D, with it being a few years old now, so got to be careful pushing speed up. with the canon100-400 being f4.5 -5.6, what will the IS bring it down to roughly? interesting idea with the converter though

thanks
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Old 29-06-2006, 08:30   #6 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

I've read that IS gives back 2 stops & possibly even 3 stops under hand held conditions. I'm sure the Canon boys with these lenses should be able to verify or not.
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Old 29-06-2006, 09:09   #7 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

IS does work but your mileage will vary depending on the circumstances where it is being used. F4.5 is slow for indoor concert photography and I would guess that the range of the lens would also be wrong if you want anything other than snaps. It will off course depend on where you are in relation to the band/artist. The IS will allow you to reduce camera shake up to the equivalent of 2 stops realistically (possibly 3 stops in some cases) but it will not allow you to freeze the artists movements. What this means is that it is likely that your shots will still be blurred but possibly not due to camera shake. This kind of shot can work in small quantities but will leave you a long way short of having a good overall catalogue of the event.

Unfortunately you will need a fast lens, f.2.8 might work, F1.8 would be better and f1.4 would be ideal, also up the iso and then filter your shots using a noise reduction package (noise ninja or noise reduction pro) during post production. Also remember that concert footage can often be enhanced by a gritty feel and it can add atmosphere too.

HTH
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Old 30-06-2006, 00:18   #8 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

sorry steve may of misled you, may only get the 100-400 just for wildlife stuff, so wouldnt use it for concert photography etc, my fault for asking loads of questions at once. had a go with the canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM tonight which isnt too bad, trouble is ive got the "L quality bug, shouldnt of bought the 17-40 first ,as i compare quality to that. not sure the 28-135 is sharp enough for me, would this be fast enough for indoor lowish light stuff though as focal zoom length is quite nice. would rather spend a bit more on L quality now than outgrow other lenses and have to sell them for peanuts in 2 years time

what about Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM Lens (non-IS)
£729.99 from one -stop digital...maybe stick a x2/4 converter on it for wildlife stuff? would this be a viable and wise option

sorry for so many questions again
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Old 30-06-2006, 07:45   #9 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

That appears to be the eternal question for people wanting longer zoom on a Canon. I bought the 70-300 USM IS a few months back but a viable altenative was the 70-200 that you mentioned with a converter. Bottom line for me was do I want IS or do I want f2.8 on an L lens. I had never had an IS lens and dearly wanted to see whether it was worth all the shouting and in my opinion it is. So I'm glad I got IS and I saved a few hundred.

But....why not buy the 70-200 f2.8 L IS USM



and you'll have the best of all worlds
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Old 30-06-2006, 08:14   #10 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

cheers Stepheno,

the 70-200L with IS is just a little out of my price range, only got about £800 budget because the offers on my Contax film kit that im trying to sell from some camera dealers ive contacted is no where near what id thought id get for it , which will fund the new canon lens

the IS would be nice though, if i was professional i would get it, but as im beginner its a bit hard to justify it,..oh i dont know, you really shouldnt be giving me ideas.. he he what about buying one used? or is that not a good idea

cheers scott
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Old 30-06-2006, 08:23   #11 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

You know posting that picture Stepheno will be bordering on Erotica for some Canon users
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Old 30-06-2006, 08:26   #12 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

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..oh i dont know, you really shouldnt be giving me ideas.. he he what about buying one used? or is that not a good ideacheers scott
The likelyhood of me buying used is inversely proportionate to the value of the item - ie - the more a thing costs the more I want a proper guarantee and warranty. I would probably spend up to about £100 or so on something used.
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Old 30-06-2006, 16:11   #13 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Well I purchased my 100-400L IS used a few months ago and have been very happy with it, I think as long as you do your homework on the particular lens you can take alot of the worry out of it... I will admit I was still a little worried though
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Old 03-07-2006, 00:20   #14 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

thanks,

Sonsey can i ask where you got hold of your used 100-400L. was also considering getting your lens also, and combining it with tamron 28-75 as recommended here by Steve, and also notice quite a few pixalo member have one in their bag.but now wondering how much use i will get out of the 100-400 as i only occasionally dabble in wildlife photography, so have decided that the 70-200mm range would be most useful for the stuff i do. will the results of 70-200 2.8L IS with a x2 or x4 converter give as good results as Soney's 100-400 f4 as then i can use it for wildlife wioth converter when needed and i only have to shelll out for one lens and a teleconverter.

if i could get a good 70-200 used that would be great, one stop have new for £1039, people have said the non IS version is sharper on various sites, but i hate using tripods, so IS would be great i think and IS version is weather sealed.....ps why is the canon 70-200 so big compared to other 200mm zooms like my tamron for instance.

thank you guys scott
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Old 03-07-2006, 02:36   #15 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

I was lucky enough to get mine from a guy on a different forum who needed to sell quickly and therefore got it for a good price, the only problems I've heard of people having with them is with the Image Stabilisation which can stop working or start to get noisey (same as any other IS lens)... I made sure to ask the seller about this along with the regular questions you ask when buying a 2nd hand lens.

I also use it along side a Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 (great lens ) and I don't often find it lacking, the only time I'm let down by the 100-400L IS is when the light isn't great as it really needs decent light to be at it's best IMHO. For this reason I think your best option could be to go for the 70-200L f/2.8 IS especially as you say you would only be "occasionally" shooting wildlife, it'll be great on it own for lower light situations and then you can put a converter onto it for when you need a longer range, one thing to point out would be that image quality of the 70-200 when used with a x2 converter may not be as good as the 100-400 on it's own, perhaps a member that uses the 70-200 with a 2x could comment on this?.

You should certainly get a hands-on feel for each lens before buying though as it is a big purchase, maybe take your camera and memory card to a shop that has them in stock and will let you demo, fire off a few shots in as many lighting conditions as possible (e.g inside a shop, outside the same shop) then take the files home and check them on your PC, perhaps you live close to a forum member that owns one or the other, they might be kind enough to let you come over for a bit and use theirs.
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Old 04-07-2006, 00:01   #16 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

brilliant Sonsey,

thanks for the detailed reply. will ask around for more advice on how the converters work with the 70-200 and how they effect image quality.had a quick blast with your 100-400 in a camera shop in america a month or so ago on a 20D, it felt really nice, and locked on to 2 promotions girls in hotpants that were across the street really well!. would be nice to have one but as i said might only get used occasionally. Been reading Dave's thread:- Example shot taken with Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 EX DG HSM,that would be cheaper than canons 70-200 2.8 IS, but would miss the IS on sigma, ..with my DT's!. If canon 70-200 with teleconverter combo gets the thumbs up i will bite the bullet and lay out for that, and hopefully that will complete a good focal range with my lenses and wouldnt need anything else(shouldnt say that in this photography game, purchasing seems to get more frequent and more expensive as you get into it) and as a beginner(6 months with firstever camera) i am probably running before i can walk with talking about buying pro lenses

thanks scott
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Old 05-07-2006, 09:37   #17 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

If you are looking to add in a teleconverter to the equation you should be aware that when they are used you loose 1 stop for a 1.6x and 2 stops for a 2x converter. Any larger than a 2x converter will reduce the quality so much that they are just not worth considering. Basically a f2.8 lens will become a f4 if a 1.6x converter is used and f5.6 if a 2x converter is added, this needs to factored in when deciding as you will gain range but lose the light. Unless you are using a professional series body then you will also lose autofocus at anything above F5.6 (Pro series maintain AF at F8 but it is subject to light conditions obviously)

If you do go this route also have a look at the prices of other brands of converters, the Canon ones come in at around £200 each while you can get the Kenko Pro DG versions for around half that if bought through Ebay resellers. The glass in these is made by Hoya and although they are not weather sealed the quality both optically and manufacture wise is on parr.

I use a Kenko 1.6x Pro along with my Canon 70-200L F4 which gives me good range and excellent quality while still allowing me F5.6 and the autofocus to work properly.

An example shot using that combination can be seen below.

http://www.pixalo.com/gallery/data/501/IMG_7422-01.jpg
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Old 05-07-2006, 15:58   #18 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

hi Steve

When you say pro body, do you mean 5D upwards? i have 10D so i could have problems autofocusing with a 2x converter?. f5.6 with a 2x conv, thats quite a drop, didnt realize it would be that much. If i lumped for the IS version with 2x, would that be usable outside in reasonable conditions? Your 1.6x conv gives you equivelent of 320mm, does the sensor crop magification add to that as well, in 35mm terms what would be total focal length on 200mm end with a 16x on a 10/20D.

There seems to be a lot of downsides to teleconverters, might i just get the canon 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and hope it performs as an allrounder in lowish light and as wildlife lens, or get your tamron 28-75 for the gig/ low light stuff and save up for a longer focal length later on

but the 1.6x might be ok on the 70-200 2.8 with IS.... sorry im probably getting on everyones nerves with all these questions, i get a bit anal about everything i buy and have to research it fully which can turn into a pain., have made some bad buys in the past so doubley careful now, would rather buy something to grow into rather than grow out and get peanuts for it when i sell it in a years time.

thanks scott
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Old 07-07-2006, 12:14   #19 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by asd
hi Steve

When you say pro body, do you mean 5D upwards? i have 10D so i could have problems autofocusing with a 2x converter?. f5.6 with a 2x conv, thats quite a drop, didnt realize it would be that much.
Hi Scott

The 10D is not a pro body, you are looking at 1series bodies unfortunately before the AF will work above 5.6 This is because the af systems are more sensitive and able to lock on in the lower light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asd
If i lumped for the IS version with 2x, would that be usable outside in reasonable conditions? Your 1.6x conv gives you equivelent of 320mm, does the sensor crop magification add to that as well, in 35mm terms what would be total focal length on 200mm end with a 16x on a 10/20D.
Reasonable conditions is a subjective thing, generally your shutter speed needs to be equiverlant or higher than your focal length for you to get a shake free result. Obviously IS helps but as I have already said it will not stop movement of the subject and is only a help in removing camera shake.

Sensor crop magnification is a whole new subject and the term and perception is very misleading. In fact there is no magnification from sensor crop just that the portion of the image that is captured is restricted to the centre of what the lens can normally capture and focused on a smaller sensor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asd
There seems to be a lot of downsides to teleconverters, might i just get the canon 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and hope it performs as an allrounder in lowish light and as wildlife lens, or get your tamron 28-75 for the gig/ low light stuff and save up for a longer focal length later on
Teleconverters are a means to an end, I have the Tamron lens that you mention but I would never use a converter with it. It will always be better to use a longer lens on its own to get better results than adding in extra glass to a shorter lens to extend it range which ultimately will degrade the quality. The 70-300 f4-5.6 IS is a good all rounder but would hardly be considered as fast lens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asd
but the 1.6x might be ok on the 70-200 2.8 with IS.... sorry im probably getting on everyones nerves with all these questions, i get a bit anal about everything i buy and have to research it fully which can turn into a pain., have made some bad buys in the past so doubley careful now, would rather buy something to grow into rather than grow out and get peanuts for it when i sell it in a years time.

thanks scott
We have all been there but my best advice is not to try to cover all the ranges and options all at once unless you have a big budget, It took me several years to get my current gear listing together and if truth be told, my gear list is no where near as expensive or expansive as many others. I did choose each of my lenses with care though and with a certain subject in mind. I bought the Tamron to get me started with a reasonable range to cover general shooting, I then added a telephoto to allow for wildlife and finally as my love of landscapes grew I added in a wide angle too. The point is that at any one time I could have found myself wanting a different lens range but the simple fact is that photography like many other things requires equipment specific to your favoured subjects…if you have many varied subjects, its going to take the average photographer time to get together the gear he/she needs.

Hope that helps a little…believe me I feel your pain
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Old 09-07-2006, 00:13   #20 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Thank you for that Steve,

Does help a lot,i am still confused about the teleconverters though. What is the max focal length on a cropped(1.6) sensor of your 70-200 with the Kenko 1.6x converter please? Know exactly what you mean about buliding kit up slowly. Was hoping to kill two birds with one stone by getting 70-200 2.8 IS and using with the 1.6x teleconverter for wildlife only on occasions.Could justify the £1000 plus outlay for this.

does image quality suffer badly with kenko 1.6 televerter

cheers steve
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Old 10-07-2006, 08:34   #21 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by asd
Thank you for that Steve,

Does help a lot,i am still confused about the teleconverters though. What is the max focal length on a cropped(1.6) sensor of your 70-200 with the Kenko 1.6x converter please?
The max focal length is exactly the same as it would be on a full frame or a 1.6x crop factor camera..

200 (focal length of lens) X 1.6 (Teleconveror) = 320mm

The crop factor merely captures the information from the centre of the frame and converts that to whatever MP your sensor has…this is why it APPEARS to be enlarged and as though it further extends the focal range.

If you want to see a table of the apparent crop factors of different size sensors in cameras at different focal lengths take a look at http://www.pixalo.com/articles/Effec...al-cameras.php

Quote:
Originally Posted by asd
does image quality suffer badly with kenko 1.6 televerter
cheers steve
No more than the Canon and far less than some other makes/brands of converters. If there is some subject matter that you wish to view using the 70-200 and Kenko 1.6x convertor just shout, I use this combination quite a lot and should be able to provide an example of most subjects.
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Old 10-07-2006, 18:50   #22 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Cheers would love to see some examples of 70-200 with kenko if its no bother, i enjoy photographing ducks, animals etc,but any examples you have would be great
thanks
have visited your website, is there any images on there with 70-200 kenko combo?
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Old 10-07-2006, 20:02   #23 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

From my personal website...

Will a duckling do? Not quite full frame this one, I very tiny crop was done to alter the framing of the duckling




and not quite a duck but still a bird of the feathered variety This time full frame.



Both shot with the 70-200L and Kenko Pro 300 DG teleconvertor.
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Old 10-07-2006, 20:05   #24 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Also wanted to add this one as its one of my favourite shots from last year...



Again shot using that combination

Shout if you need any more
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Old 10-07-2006, 21:49   #25 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

thanks a lot for posting your work
all really nice images, one question steve, were they hand held, or tripoded? jealous of the duckling photo, really cute that one. ok may push boat out and go for a 70-200L IS 2.8 and have done with it, along with the kenko converter you have recomended,and that will be it for a few years Where would you say is the cheapest place to purchase outside uk(cos cant afford uk prices(£1300) ...one stop digital has it for £1038, people have mentioned that B&H in new york is cheap, are there quality control issues/ soft copies with these 70-200 series lenses?

will promise to keep quiet for a while now and stop annoying you all with questions as my profile has changed to quite chatty

cheers trust your judgement steve as you led me to the 17-40L which i love
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Old 10-07-2006, 22:03   #26 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Jees!!

why, this is a monster! whys it so big(as the actress said to the bishop) my tamron 28-200 is smaller than 17-40

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 USM L IS - Photozone Test Report / Review

gonna have to buy a bigger bag if i get this...........nothings simple in this photography game is it
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Old 11-07-2006, 11:12   #27 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by asd
thanks a lot for posting your work
all really nice images, one question steve, were they hand held, or tripoded? jealous of the duckling photo, really cute that one.
Cheers, they were all handheld.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asd
ok may push boat out and go for a 70-200L IS 2.8 and have done with it, along with the kenko converter you have recomended,and that will be it for a few years
It would indeed be a potent combination but you are getting close to size, weight, the shooting limits (F stop wise) and the cost of the 100-400L lens there. The size and weight of f2.8 and the push pull of the 100-400 zoom were the factors that made me go for the 70-200L F4 lens over either of the other two. I have a light versatile and pin sharp combination that didn’t break the bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by asd
Where would you say is the cheapest place to purchase outside uk(cos cant afford uk prices(£1300) ...one stop digital has it for £1038, people have mentioned that B&H in new york is cheap, are there quality control issues/ soft copies with these 70-200 series lenses?
Onestop seem to be one of the cheapest places that also offer a risk free import service. If you want to get it from a UK dealer take a look at Bristol Cameras, they seem very competitive against UK prices and of course the stock is full UK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asd
will promise to keep quiet for a while now and stop annoying you all with questions as my profile has changed to quite chatty

cheers trust your judgement steve as you led me to the 17-40L which i love
No problem, that’s what we are here for
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Old 11-07-2006, 19:49   #28 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

do ya think i should go for the 70-200 f4 instead, would save the pennies but dont think aperture would be flexible for gig/ concerts shots as you've said in previous threads. it would be nice if they made a 70-200 f4 IS for about £800

is this focal range ok for social events(weddings etc) and portraits?

cheers
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Old 11-07-2006, 19:54   #29 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

Only you can decide if any of the lenses we have discussed are suitible for your requirements but if it was me then I would say that the F4 would not be fast enough for gig photography. I personally believe you are trying to get a one lens solution to a problem that requires more...
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Old 11-07-2006, 20:38   #30 (permalink)
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Re: 17-40L 50mm1.8..... next lens dilemma

yeh ur right
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