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Cameras, Lenses and Accessories: Discuss Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality...Hi Together, I have a question about the JPEG compression on the Canon 400D. Until recently I thought I had ...
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Old 10-08-2008, 17:00   #1 (permalink)
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Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Hi Together,

I have a question about the JPEG compression on the Canon 400D.

Until recently I thought I had a real good Camera, but then 2 things happened:

1. I shot a picture with RAW + JPEG
2. My friend bought a Nikon 300D
Come to the point, if I look at some of my JPEG pictures, the shadow area and the colors are so bad that I could go crazy.

The RAW Image give me much "realer@ colours.
I made some shots with my friends Nikon 300D and was blown away with the JPEG even with not the 'best@ compression.

Am I do something wrong here or what is it witht he JPEG and the 400D?

I have attached the sample pictures which I'm talking about.

Sorry, I was just realising that I'm not allowed to add files to posts in this forum.

How Can I share with you the pictures I'm talking about?

Last edited by clafra; 10-08-2008 at 17:07. Reason: Can not add files to my post
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Old 10-08-2008, 17:11   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

not sure why u think you are not allowed to attach files. or is it ust cos u are a new member., do a couple more posts and you will be able to.............. off the top of my head im going to ask what lens you were using and what lens was on your friends nikon........ then im going to ask what settings you had on the canon on JPG? as it is very much dependant on settings and glass as to quality. remember RAW has no processing dont in camera on JPG its deendant on how u have told the camera to process it

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Old 10-08-2008, 17:20   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

The D300 JPEG will be better anyway, because it's a refined system, but I think the main problem is probably that with the RAW + JPEG setting on the 400D I think the JPEGs are low quality only, so probably what you were seeing was a small, low quality JPEG...
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Old 10-08-2008, 17:20   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

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Originally Posted by fionaB View Post
not sure why u think you are not allowed to attach files.
Attachments are switched off on Pixalo, but you are able to link to Phtoos if under 300K & 1000 pixels.

You have a free gallery here, so upload & share back in this thread

http://www.pixalo.com/community/site...oad-12056.html
http://www.pixalo.com/community/site...oad-12057.html

I wouldn't worry too much re 400D, as excellent camera. Should just be a setting wrong somewhere on the camera for JPEG

Have a look at CLPhotos shots to see what a 400D can do :- clphoto Gallery - Pixalo Photo Gallery (caution - contains nudity)
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Old 10-08-2008, 17:32   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Hi clafra

There's no reason to use RAW + JPEG unless you need a JPEG file to print or transmit instantly. Ideally, use RAW and carry out tonal and colour adjustments before converting to TIFF or JPEG - that will give you the best quality and the most control.

If you shoot JPEG, Canon offers various Picture Styles that affect the tone curve, saturation and contrast of the image. The default 'Standard' setting is not what it sounds to be - in fact it boosts contrast and saturation to give more punch to the image. Choose 'Neutral' for a more natural result.

Although RAW is better, the JPEG output from the 400D should be very good if everything is set right.
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Old 10-08-2008, 18:14   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

I shoot mostly in JPEG with 400d and i am quite happy with the quality,may depend on the lens used or the setting.
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Old 10-08-2008, 18:24   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Hi All,


thank you for the quick reply.

Beautifull Gallery ( Dani Marie ), I wish I would have made some of this shots ^^

For the JPEG Quality, I can not see a lot of options on my camera other then either a very smotth compression ( shown as a smooth courve ) or a stepp ( shown as solid steps).
I have chosen the smooth courve.

I,m uploading my Image at the moment to my website, I will post the link soon.


My Setting on the shot:

f / 6.3
shutter speed: 1 / 100
ISO 200
Lens: 17.0mm
focal length: 36mm

My lens: SIGMA DC 17-70mm / 1:2.8-4.5

I'm not 100% sure if I have translated the term right as I use German programs....
I hope this helps a bit.

Is there any additional setting on the JPEG compression on the camera?

Last edited by clafra; 10-08-2008 at 18:27. Reason: added Lens Specs and wish
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Old 10-08-2008, 18:31   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Are you sure that you are using the highest quality JPEG setting. Also you can set a number of parameters in the camera which, if set incorrectly, may produce poor JPEG results. This does not happen with Raw because you by-pass the camera processing.

Until we can see the images, it is difficult to make a judgment based on the subject. If you take subjects of dynamic range of less than 7 stops you should be able to capture these fine with JPEG but if the dynamic range is much greater (say up to 10 stops) then you will need Raw if you wish to capture all the shadow detail.

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Old 10-08-2008, 19:00   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Just set your camera on the smooth curve setting not the step and set it for JPEG only not JPEG + RAW. You'll soon see the differance
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Old 10-08-2008, 19:08   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

I have uploaded now my pictures, here the link:

http://www.clafra.de/download/compare.zip


I have and had set the camera to the smooth curve, not the step.
I may have not explained it properly, sorry!

Thanks again to everyone for your effort...
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Old 10-08-2008, 19:16   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Hi Together,

somethings strange is happening.

I have now replied 3 times with the link to my pictures but I can't see the message in the forum....

Is it maybe not allowed to post a link to a zip file?


@ chris: I have set the JPEG to the smooth curve, sorry for the confusion!

---- Now it is there...

Last edited by clafra; 10-08-2008 at 19:29. Reason: It's there.... ?
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Old 10-08-2008, 19:29   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by clafra View Post
Hi Together,

somethings strange is happening.

I have now replied 3 times with the link to my pictures but I can't see the message in the forum....

Is it maybe not allowed to post a link to a zip file?


@ chris: I have set the JPEG to the smooth curve, sorry for the confusion!
Hi clafra, the reason why your previous attempts to post a link didn't work is because all members with a post count of 5 or less have any posts with links automatically placed into the moderation queue to be manually approved. This is done to prevent spammers and unfortunately effects genuine members like you on occasions.

I have approved one of your posts with a link and removed the others, all your posts from now on should appear without needing any moderation. Sorry for the inconvenience this has caused you
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Old 10-08-2008, 19:29   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Page 61 here for reference to 400D image settings :- http://oregonstate.edu/is/mediaservi..._Rebel_XTi.pdf (warning 5MB)
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Old 10-08-2008, 19:38   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Hi clafra, the reason why your previous attempts to post a link didn't work is because all members with a post count of 5 or less have any posts with links automatically placed into the moderation queue to be manually approved. This is done to prevent spammers and unfortunately effects genuine members like you on occasions.

I have approved one of your posts with a link and removed the others, all your posts from now on should appear without needing any moderation. Sorry for the inconvenience this has caused you
Thank you for your quick help!

No inconvenience, just wondering..!
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Old 10-08-2008, 19:51   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Page 61 here for reference to 400D image settings :- http://oregonstate.edu/is/mediaservi..._Rebel_XTi.pdf (warning 5MB)
Thank you very much for a digital copy of the instruction!

It seems that I have set the quality as high as possible...
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Old 10-08-2008, 20:28   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Not at all familiar with the Canon settings, but I'm wondering if jack has hit the nail on the head with the saving of files with RAW + jpeg. The jpeg that is saved might not be of the higherst quality, unlike if you were shooting jpeg only.

You might find there is only one default setting for a jpeg saved alongside a RAW file, and even if you have set the jpeg to the highest quality/lowest compression, this could be over-ridden when saving both files together.

I've not been able to access the links as i'm at work and our system won't open them.
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Old 11-08-2008, 05:51   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

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Originally Posted by Dabhand16 View Post
Not at all familiar with the Canon settings, but I'm wondering if jack has hit the nail on the head with the saving of files with RAW + jpeg. The jpeg that is saved might not be of the higherst quality, unlike if you were shooting jpeg only.

You might find there is only one default setting for a jpeg saved alongside a RAW file, and even if you have set the jpeg to the highest quality/lowest compression, this could be over-ridden when saving both files together.

I've not been able to access the links as i'm at work and our system won't open them.
Yes, something which I had not thought about before.

Does someone know if this is the case?
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Old 11-08-2008, 09:13   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Looking at the RAW file the best focal point in the shot appears to be about at the back of their heads. The sharpest point is the rear of the girls cap and some individual hair strands .
Looking at the levels there is about a 20% cut of before the maximum highlight end of the scene.
I would think looking at the shot because there is some motion blur either way this could be due to camera and lady movement.

There is definetly too much colour,have you had a look at the camera settings regarding the amount of colour and also check the White Balance.
I hope this helps.
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Old 11-08-2008, 09:26   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

The manual reads as though you can only have RAW & "L" Jpeg, which is the highest res option. When you cycle through the image quality options does it give you more than one RAW+JPEG option ?

Can you do a test of JPEG (L) only vs RAW + JPEG, just so you can compare both JPEGs. ?
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Old 11-08-2008, 09:53   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

That's a good Idea.

I will do a shot with JPEG-'L' and try the same with RAW+JPEG.

I will then post the link to the files for discussion....

Really great to "work' with you on this subject!
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Old 11-08-2008, 10:19   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

As I mentioned earlier, the Picture Style you use for JPEGs will have a significant effect on contrast, saturation, sharpness, etc.

It's explained here - Canon EOS 400D / Digital Rebel XTi: Digital Photography Review

Quote:
Picture Style

Picture Style pre-sets simplify in-camera control over image qualities. Picture Style pre-sets can be likened to different film types – each one offering a different colour response. Within each selectable pre-set, photographers have control over sharpness, contrast, colour tone and saturation. The camera’s factory default configuration is set to deliver immediately-usable JPEG images without need for additional menu settings. Picture Style presets applied to a RAW image do not degrade the image in any way and can be revised with Canon’s Digital Photo Professional software.

The six pre-sets include: Standard – for crisp, vivid images that don’t require post-processing; Portrait – optimises colour tone and saturation and weakens sharpening to achieve attractive skin tones; Landscape – for punchier greens and blues with stronger sharpening to give a crisp edge to mountain, tree and building outlines; Neutral – ideal for post-processing; Faithful – adjusts colour to match the subject colour when shot under a colour temperature of 5200K; Monochrome – for black and white shooting with a range of filter effects (yellow, orange, red and green) and toning effects (sepia, blue, purple and green). The User Defined Picture Style can be used to store up to three customised pre-sets, or any of the pre-sets available for download from Canon’s web site.
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Old 11-08-2008, 10:56   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

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The manual reads as though you can only have RAW & "L" Jpeg, which is the highest res option.
That is going to be the large size as I'll bet the camera cannot save the two files with different sizes. You need to establish the compression used in the RAW + jpeg option, and I'll bet it is the highest compression/lowest quality.

My old Nikon compact had three jpeg sizes - L,M and S - and three compression settings - basic, medium and fine. You could mix any combination of all of these size and quality options.

My D70s has the same three jpeg size and quality settings basic, medium and fine, but if saving RAW + jpeg - the default (and only) jpeg quality option is basic. The jpeg size option cannot be set as they have to be the same as the RAW files. So here the jpeg option is the lowest quality, but with the largest size. The D300 manual is a little confusing in this area, but would appear to be the same as the D70s.

The sizes are measured in pixels - width x height - the quality by the amount of compression. On the D70s, a large fine jpeg file is 2.9mb, a large basic 0.8mb - a huge difference in compression.
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Old 11-08-2008, 11:37   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

OK, here we go.

I took the shots this afternoon.

http://www.clafra.de/download/rawvsjpeg-2.zip

1.) Shot with Best Quality - Full Automatic - only JPEG ( possible )
2.) Shot with RAW+JPEG

Interesting to see, the picture of the fully automatic mode and the JPEG picture of the RAW+JPEG look exactly the same - too dark - details in shadow area gone.

The RAW again looks OK - to mee....

Is there maybe a software problem with my camera?

I have no program activaded as far I can see, does someone have also a D400 and can make possible the same test?

Last edited by clafra; 11-08-2008 at 16:29.
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Old 11-08-2008, 13:08   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

You can use RAW and 'best' jpeg together on the 400.

Looking at one of your examples I wouldn't say anything was wrong with it other than it being a bit flat due to lacking contrast and the white balance being slightly off.

My brother and I both have 400D's (bought independently, without kowing what the other was doing). We both started out a little disappointed with results, but getting to know the camera pays dividends. I'm delighted with mine now.
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Old 11-08-2008, 13:52   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

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Originally Posted by the_frog View Post
You can use RAW and 'best' jpeg together on the 400.

Looking at one of your examples I wouldn't say anything was wrong with it other than it being a bit flat due to lacking contrast and the white balance being slightly off.

My brother and I both have 400D's (bought independently, without kowing what the other was doing). We both started out a little disappointed with results, but getting to know the camera pays dividends. I'm delighted with mine now.
Hi Frog,

could you do the same test as I did and say something about the results? ( RAW + JPEG)
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Old 11-08-2008, 18:16   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Hi

Thanks to Dave for the plug and the comments by Clafra on the images. I only shoot in RAW as it gives me complete control in processing afterwards.Not that I do more than a slight adjustmnet in levels.
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:03   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

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Originally Posted by clafra View Post
OK, here we go.

I took the shots this afternoon.

http://www.clafra.de/download/rawvsjpeg-2.zip

1.) Shot with Best Quality - Full Automatic - only JPEG ( possible )
2.) Shot with RAW+JPEG

Interesting to see, the picture of the fully automatic mode and the JPEG picture of the RAW+JPEG look exactly the same - too dark - details in shadow area gone.

The RAW again looks OK - to mee....

Is there maybe a software problem with my camera?

I have no program activaded as far I can see, does someone have also a D400 and can make possible the same test?



Clafra, I have looked at your three shots and they are all very similar.

In particular and I did have the same results with my Canon 350D. Looking at the Tone Levels the curves do not cover the whole 0-255 levels. I make your shots 6-235(238)

These should easily be corrected but try adjustments with your 400D settings to see if you can achieve the results you want.

I also detect a slight Gamma error and this won't be possible to correct in camera.

Are you aware that you have the camera setting for sharpness at maximum +3.
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:43   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

Hi Brian,

I will check if I can change the tone brighter. I guess this affects only JPEG as the RAW is not processed?

I have no idea how I did set the sharpness to +3 and what it means. I have chosen JPEG - best quality. Is this maybe the sharpness?
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Old 12-08-2008, 11:03   #29 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

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Hi Frog,

could you do the same test as I did and say something about the results? ( RAW + JPEG)
I wont be able to do anything til the morning but I'll give it a shot.
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Old 12-08-2008, 12:00   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 400D - JPEG so bad quality

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Hi Brian,

I will check if I can change the tone brighter. I guess this affects only JPEG as the RAW is not processed?

I have no idea how I did set the sharpness to +3 and what it means. I have chosen JPEG - best quality. Is this maybe the sharpness?

No Clafra, you set personal settings in the Menu settings. Go into parameters and press set and you will see Contrast,Sharpness,Saturation(Colour) and Colour Tone,I think.
Brian
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