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Old 22-01-2007, 21:20   #1 (permalink)
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Canon 40D leak

Well we know that Canon's life cycle for their cameras is usually 12 months and that the 30D was regarded by most as a reactionary model to the Nikon D200 but it appears that the 40D is very imernant.

Canon had up the first snippets of infomation on their HK website earlier tonight. The information has all but disapeared now but this is usually how they let new slip and feed the rumours before the official announcement...

If you want to check the link its below..although what information you will find there when you check is anyones guess

Canon Hongkong Co., Ltd.

Edit...here is a screen shot of what was on there earlier...not much to wet the appetite but its definate that the 40D is comming.




I wonder what you Canon guys (and gals) are expecting the specs to be for this model an do you think it will be able to compete with the Nikon D200??
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Old 22-01-2007, 21:44   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I suppose there is a difference between what I would like and what it will be. I don't think there is a lot they can do to compete with the D200 after all there is peanuts between them anyway.

More to the point what will/can they do which will give a significant upgrade yet not take sales away from the 5D and above. What I'd like to see is 12mp, water sealed, maybe full-time histogram, faster burst and maybe full frame...but really, do I need any more than I have now?
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Old 22-01-2007, 22:02   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

Well they are rumoured to be replacing/splitting the 5D 'range' to give us a full frame camera at a lower price point, possibly with the build quality of the 20/30D and another model, possibly called a 7D whcih will be a upgraded 5D featuring weather sealing too....

Digic III processors throughout the new ranges and quite possibly all including the new sensor cleaning technology too.

Also keep your eyes open for replacements for the top end range too...it really looks like Canon is about to hit us with some major upgrades. The news could be broken officially in the next 7-14 days with the first new models being available as early as March
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Old 23-01-2007, 07:17   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

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.... and quite possibly all including the new sensor cleaning technology too.
Well - I can do without that. I believe that whichever gizmo they use the dust is still inside the chamber and eventually needs manually removing. But I suppose it's a good sales gimmick.
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Old 23-01-2007, 07:20   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I believe its much more than a sales gimmick. You are totally correct that the dust if shaken off the sensor will remain in the chamber but for many that is far better than having it on the sensor and it effecting your photos.
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Old 23-01-2007, 08:54   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I am with Steve on this, I know the dust is 'inside there somewhere' but frankly that bothers me not at all. After all, dust IS everywhere, all the time (other than in dust-free labs of course.... just put that in for the pedantic!) but as long as it isn't on my sensor it isn't affecting my pictures. i can clean lenses and eyepieces perfectly well so that is not an issue.

I am certain they will include an auto cleaning sensor again but in addition I must say I would like full-frame. That would give it the biggest march on the D200 as, let's face it, there is little else you can do to improve the picture quality. The pixel resolution thing is of little importance these days except for heavy cropping and having a bit faster burst rate is not something the vast majority care about other than sports photographers et al.

I am like a child waiting for Christmas wondering what the 40D will be like.... it is definitely going to be a significant upgrade this time, they can't afford to do another tinker release like the 30D (ok, slightly doing it down but you know what I mean!)

Cheers,
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Old 23-01-2007, 10:50   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

Quote:
What I'd like to see is 12mp, water sealed, maybe full-time histogram, faster burst and maybe full frame...but really, do I need any more than I have now?
Now that would tempt me to upgrade from the 20D, but then, as you say, do I realy need any more than I have?
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Old 23-01-2007, 11:16   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I guess what I am concerned about is whether the 40D turns out to be just a better built 400D. After all in general terms the 10D was a better built 300D and the 30D a better built 350D (not comparing all specs here, just making a general point!) so is the 40D going to be a well-built 10.1MP, 2.5" screen, auto-sensor cleaning, spot-metering camera?

I really hope they are a bit more imaginative and take us further up than that, albeit that is still excellent specification. The extra 2Mp wasn't enough to make me get a 400D to go with my 20D (I am looking to buy a second camera, not replace the one I have). I intend to keep my 20D for back-up and use the 40D for most work as I can't afford to turn up at a wedding with a camera that decides to die on me!

Anyway, I think if most 20D/30D owners are honest, their one biggest wish is a full-frame camera at an affordable price (sub-1000).
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Old 23-01-2007, 12:17   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I can't see it being full-frame - this is Canon's step-up camera from their consumer range, currently the 400D, and they're not going to get people to step up if all their EF-S lenses become unusable. They may well release a cheaper model in the 5D range that is full-frame, but it wouldn't be good marketing to make their step-up consumer camera full-frame now they've brought all these EF-S lenses out. Not only would those who have EF-S lenses avoid it and instead buy second-hand 30Ds, it would also kill their EF-S lens sales, as people don't like to buy things that aren't future-proof.

If the 40D was full-frame it would certainly put me off buying it - a full-frame camera needs much more expensive lenses to maintain quality, otherwise you're seeing the soft edges that 1.6FOVCF sensors nicely hide. And all my zoom lenses suddenly get 1.6x less long-reaching. Sure, you can go wide, but I have the Sigma 10-20mm which is pin-sharp and as wide as a 16mm lens on a FF camera, and I don't honestly want to go any wider than that.
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Old 26-01-2007, 16:46   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

whats missing from the 20d/30d and exists on the d200 is ease / speed of use,. it depends on how you wish to use a camera of course but to me having a switch to go to spot meter or whatever is really a handy thing

noise handling will be interesting to see,. the 20/30d's really are nice in this regard remains to be seen what happens if as seems likely they put in the 10mp sensor from the 400d and try to make it do 3200iso

you could say already the 30d is better than the d200 or the other way round,. it all depends on what it is you need from the camera...

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Old 26-01-2007, 17:18   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I was about to upgrade from 350D to 400D whilst in USA but sure that a 40D with all the new features in the 400 plus those of the 30D with build to match would be coming - so treated myself to the Sigma 2.8 70-200 instead!
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Old 26-01-2007, 18:55   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

Good choice of lens there Fangman

Although a Nikon man, I'm looking forward to seeing what the Canon 40D offers It's all good for the consumer
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Old 26-01-2007, 20:03   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

Whilst I can see abirkill's reasoning about marketing, I think there is one part missing:

The battle for sales over the last few years has been massive and Canon has been winning hands down so far. Nothing to do with which are the best cameras or anything, I am simply referring to item sales. There have been many battles in the general enthusiast market....

The biggest battle was the first to get one out that was under a grand. Canon succeeded but the market soon flooded with loads of cameras all getting cheaper and cheaper so then the battle becamse to get one out there for under 500. We have passed that milestone and now have several around that price.

The battle now is not to add to the myriad of entry levels and not to keep the professionals happy (they already are and are not needing to spend out more thousands on another upgrade) so the middle ground area is hotting up big time. Canon are not fools, they are mapping their way forward very carefully. They went for a major upgrade in the lower range to sell more of the 400D, not only by new sales but also upgrade sales. They had to go up a level to fight off the competition and let's be honest.... they succeeded big time! The 400D is the best DSLR for anyone looking to move into the DSLR arena for the first time and has won every head to head in mags and things that I have seen in the last 6 months.

So, where are they at with the middle ground? They smashed the scene wide open with the 10D which at the time was a stunningly good step up from the previous D60 and earlier D30. Then they pushed the bar up a significant step again with the 20D. They stabilised at that point, listened to their market user and asked what things were missing that they really wanted? They knew the resolution thing was not critical as few people were printing out at bigger than 12" x 8" and the users at this level were becoming a lot more savvy about how much difference a couple more megapixels would make in reality: not that much!

So, they went for an upgrade that added a larger viewing screen, spot metering and a few other internal functions. No new pixels this time. Most people saw it for what it was: a 20D Mk II, definitely an improvement but not enough to tempt the 20D users to upgrade en masse. 10D users went for it in their droves of course.

So, where do they go from here? Who is their biggest rival? No question there, definitely Nikon with their D200. So whatever they do now has GOT to better the D200, at least in terms of numbers that they can use in adverts! They have to match or beat the pixel count because there are several DSLRs with 10mp and so this one has to be right up there. Will it be 10 or will they steal a march and go for a 12mp sensor? Have to weait and see.

Whilst it is true that the 1.6FOVCF sensor does enable the use of the more central portion of lenses and thus cheaper lenses can be used because the edge losses are not so apparent, Canon know their sales figures and they know that sales of L series lenses have absolutely gone through the roof in the last 3 years so there are plenty of people out there with lenses good enough to go full frame. I never thought I would ever have one a few years ago but through keeping my eyes peeled like a hawk for Ebay bargains I now own four. The two lenses I own that are not L series are the 100mm f2.8 macro, pin sharp and perfectly capable of going full frame, and the nifty fifty which is no problem at all.

I do entirely agree though that the EF-S lenses will be of little use so that could be an influencing factor. But there is one possible route they could choose to go....

Instead of going full-frame they could split the difference and go for a 1.3FOVCF sensor. That would be a very suitable middle ground which would enable telephoto lenses to still gain an advantage over film focal lengths, wide angle lenses to be much more useable without having to go down to a 10mm lens and more pixels without going for greater pixel density so that noise can be reduced significantly.

What about that option? Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Rob
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Old 27-01-2007, 10:17   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

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...
What about that option? Any thoughts?

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for every review you can find a review with an opposing viewpoint and all you are seeing is what the reviewer thinks is important,. there's no "Best XXX" because different ppl want different things,. if everyone thought the same it would be dull indeed,. there's some great cameras at prices that last year would have seemed amazing,. lets hope it continues

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Old 27-01-2007, 11:31   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I'll settle for full-time ISO display in the viewfinder and on the top LCD.

I guess they'll go for 10MP and self-cleaning sensor. I can't decide if the self-cleaning is a good idea or not - does it stop you from cleaning manually? If so, the sticky dust can't be removed, which seems like a bad idea long term. And what happens when the adhesive pad loses its stickiness?

Weatherproofing would be nice, but I reckon that's a dream.
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Old 27-01-2007, 12:05   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

Thing is, Silkstone, surely this time they have to produce the goods, not just another upgrade and I don't see FT ISO and 10mp being sufficient to give it a decent edge on the D200.
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Old 27-01-2007, 12:10   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

Well, I'm not sure what other advantages (perceived or real) the D200 has over the 30D. They are both very good cameras and each has its pros and cons, but the 30D is over 200 cheaper.

I really hope that they don't go for more than 10MP. OK, terrabyte drives are getting cheaper, but....
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Old 27-01-2007, 12:25   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

Agreed.....in fact when you think about it the whole thing is just getting way out of hand
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Old 27-01-2007, 12:45   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I think I've finally concluded that, although there are a few 'nice to have' features that I'd like to see on the 40D, the main thing holding me back is me.
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Old 27-01-2007, 15:58   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I take it it's not weather sealed if it leaks
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Old 27-01-2007, 18:04   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by silkstone View Post
I'll settle for full-time ISO display in the viewfinder and on the top LCD.

I guess they'll go for 10MP and self-cleaning sensor. I can't decide if the self-cleaning is a good idea or not - does it stop you from cleaning manually? If so, the sticky dust can't be removed, which seems like a bad idea long term. And what happens when the adhesive pad loses its stickiness?

Weatherproofing would be nice, but I reckon that's a dream.
No, the auto-sensor clean does not mean you can't clean manually so if you have anything that is not being removed, you can still clean it yourself.

The 20D and 30D are pretty much weather proof so why shouldn't the 40D be? The 350D and 400D are not which is one reason why they are in the cheaper range. When i say weatherproof I am not saying you can go out in a raging thunderstorm and not worry how wet the camera gets but the buttons are weather-sealed to ensure light rain will not be a problem.

I cannot see anyone buying the 40D if they have a 20/30D on the basis of its build. It has got to first match the spec of the 400D in terms of resolution, monitor size and spot metering and then add some other trick or two that will make it the camera of choice for serious enthusiasts and a second body for pros using the 1 series.

Of course no camera does everything but Canon can't afford to think like that. They have to provide the best tool for picture taking that can be found in irs price range: that is the harsh reality of marketing.

Perhaps Dave and other D200 users could tell us what features your camera has that you think Canon users are currently missing out on? What would you miss big time that you have because you have a D200?

Personally I think I would be more than happy to settle for a 1.3FOVCF sensor and preferably with 12 megapixels. I know some will insist that a rise of 10 to 12mps makes very little difference but I beg to differ. It only makes a small difference when using all the pixels and enlarging to very big pictures but it can make a significant difference when cropping an image which is sometimes essential when the lens you have with you forces you to take a larger area than the picture you want. Cropping inches means cropping megapixels so the more you have to start with the better in those circumstances.

May I just offer an alternative question to see if we can maintain interest here? We are all offering matters of conjecture as is always the case when trying to predict the future. But I am certain that the majority of people with a current DSLR have a camera that has functions that they do not use.

So, what tools/functions on your camera would you be perfectly happy to do without? This will be different for everyone of course. I personally would be happy to make do with a 3fps shooting speed instead of 5fps which I currently have simply because I don't do a lot of high speed shooting that needs it. People doing pap style photography, sports pictures, etc. often need to shoot like it's going out of fashion so speed for them is not something they want to lose.

So what would you happily do without?

Cheers,
Rob
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Old 27-01-2007, 18:23   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

A 1.3x sensor with 12MP would give no advantage over a 1.6x sensor with 10MP in terms of cropping to the same field of view - the resulting resolutions would be very similar.

What could I do without? Well, the silly PictBridge button for sure. That would be useful if it was programmable to do something else. But that's about it... oh, apart from the inflated price here in the UK!
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Old 27-01-2007, 18:57   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

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Originally Posted by Rob Barron View Post
Instead of going full-frame they could split the difference and go for a 1.3FOVCF sensor. That would be a very suitable middle ground which would enable telephoto lenses to still gain an advantage over film focal lengths, wide angle lenses to be much more useable without having to go down to a 10mm lens and more pixels without going for greater pixel density so that noise can be reduced significantly.

What about that option? Any thoughts?
OK, my prediction is that it will stay a 1.6x sensor, but think you could well be right about it getting as much as 12Mp. Do I think it will get some sort of weather sealing, yes but not as good as the full body protection found on the 1 series cameras.

And while we're on predictions:-

I think the 1D will get an upgrade to the same amount of Mp's as the 40D while still retaining it's 8fps shutter rate and 1.3x sensor.
The 1Ds will get a big bump up to 22-24Mp for it's full frame sensor.
The 5D will get a bump to 16Mp but still keeping it's 3fps shutter speed and full frame sensor.

AND

I think Steve could be right about a new camera being released as a split off of the 5d (the heavily rumoured for the last year or two, 3D or 7D), I think it could be almost like a mini 1D with a full body (camera + grip combined), 5fps, 12-16Mp, weather sealing and use either a 1.3x or full frame sensor

Now I just have to wait a couple of month's to see how clever or absolutely stupid I look
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Old 27-01-2007, 21:57   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I guess the perfect 40D for me would be the useful 30D features (i.e. spot metering) with:

1.6 FOVCF sensor
10-12 megapixels
Usable 3200ISO mode
Usable 6400ISO mode when dropped to 5-6 megapixels
Self-cleaning sensor
Image stabilisation in the camera (yeah right!)
Built-in WiFi
Built-in GPS
Weatherproof (with appropriate L-series lenses)
8 FPS burst mode
On-camera buffer capable of storing 32 RAW images

Obviously that's never gonna happen, but if the 40D had that lot I'd buy it in an instant!
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Old 29-01-2007, 13:57   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

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Originally Posted by silkstone View Post
A 1.3x sensor with 12MP would give no advantage over a 1.6x sensor with 10MP in terms of cropping to the same field of view - the resulting resolutions would be very similar.

What could I do without? Well, the silly PictBridge button for sure. That would be useful if it was programmable to do something else. But that's about it... oh, apart from the inflated price here in the UK!
The noise ratio would be much better and thus 3200ISO would be very useable because the physical size of the sensor would be bigger. Handling of high ISOs is of great importance for people who want to get better shots in lower light conditions as they can use the reciprocal adjustment to get a faster shutter speed even when the light is fading. Instead of needing an f2.8 lens to get 1/60th second instead of 1/30th when you are already at ISO 800 (the limit for a lot of cameras without getting as noisy as heck) you can go up to ISO 1600 and up the shutter speed.

hence the physical size of the sensor does make a real difference and upping the resolution is much more practical when you have that extra space to play with. Squeezing another 20% of pixels onto an APS-C sensor is hard without getting noise problems at medium ISOs.

I agree with the pointless Pictbridge thing. Very few photographers print out their best work straight from the camera, especially if they are using RAW. On the 20D you are restricted to 6"x4" pictures as well though this has been improved on the 30D and 400D.... if you really want to use it - which i don't!

I definitely do not think Canon are going to put in-camera IS and I sincerely hope they don't. Gyros in a lens do a far better job than the mounting of the sensor itself and if you have quality IS lenses, the two systems will conflict with each other I would think.

I mean, if the in-camera sensor could take the already stabilised image and stabilise it even further so you get the equivalent of 4 stops extra AND no drop in quality then great, bring it on. I very much doubt that is going to happen! Would Canon want to lose the massive amount of money they make selling L series lenses equipped with IS just to give it away with their mid-range SLRs? Not a chance1

I would definitely like to see wi-fi added but given that is one of the biggest pluses of owning a high-end and very expensive Series 1 DSLR, I can't see that happening unless other manufacturers start building it in as standard and then all will follow suit.

I wouldn't want GPS in there, i don't see the point. I have a sat-nav in my bag if I really want it and can set the location very simply but putting a GPS sensor and things in is going to add bulk to it and we are getting heavier and heavier as we speak. I am thinking of signing up to a gym to get an exercise regime going simply to increase the strength of my right arm and index finger!

Cheers,
Rob
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Old 29-01-2007, 18:48   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I agree that they aren't gonna put IS in, because it would kill their IS lens sales, but it would still be a nice to have! Obviously it would have to be switchable, both to stop potential fights with IS lenses, and to allow you to still do panning shots.

GPS would be a big plus for me because it would mean my photos would be geotagged. I can understand completely that for many people it's pointless, but I'm not sure about the weight - my Mum has a PDA phone that weighs 127g and contains a GPS receiver built in - the GPS module itself must weigh in the region of 20g at most!

The thing is, as you point out, they need a killer feature on this to surpass the D200. Obviously not all of these features are gonna make it, but you never know, one might. Personally I'm hoping for WiFi - I doubt it would really take sales away from their 1 series bodies (is anyone really paying 4 times as much just for a camera with WiFi?), but it would give them a definite advantage over the competition.
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Old 29-01-2007, 19:02   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

while I am looking forward to the 30d replacement I'll mention that the d200 (since it seems most are agreed the 40d / whatever should come close to that camera) can take a wifi grip and also the ability to attach a gps for recording info into the exif

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Old 03-02-2007, 13:56   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I think the point is Silver, we are looking for spec in-camera, not what accessories can be bolted on later. Canon already has all sorts of other gadgets that can be added on to existing cameras but when looking for a new camera, people look for what facilities it has in itself.

It's interesting speculation and we all have ouw wishlists but I have to say a lot of people said what they wanted in the 30D and were a bit disappointed with what came out as they felt it was more a 20D Mk II so the 40D has to be considered the first major upgrade since the 20D in many respects. That makes it all the more interesting, and for the Canon users among us, exciting

Cheers,
Rob
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Old 03-02-2007, 14:11   #29 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

I think it should be waterproof to 60 meters

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Old 03-02-2007, 15:11   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Canon 40D leak

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I think the point is Silver, we are looking for spec in-camera, not what accessories can be bolted on later. Canon already has all sorts of other gadgets that can be added on to existing cameras but when looking for a new camera, people look for what facilities it has in itself.
I think the point is rob you can't bolt those things on to the 30d even if you wanted to,. perhaps the 40d might allow it, perhaps not

I really hope the 40d is a worthwhile upgrade from the 30d as you say there was disappointment from a lot of canon users when the 30d specs came out

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