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Cameras, Lenses and Accessories: Discuss D3 sample image...Posted over on POTN shot at ISO 3200 http://pixmariage.free.fr/d3/_EF22344.JPG Looks good - but hard to say if it's any better ...
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Old 27-08-2007, 21:47   #1 (permalink)
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D3 sample image

Posted over on POTN

shot at ISO 3200


http://pixmariage.free.fr/d3/_EF22344.JPG


Looks good - but hard to say if it's any better than Canon...............
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Old 27-08-2007, 22:11   #2 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Just look at the top left and right of the frame.

What iso was this shot at because if its anything other than a high setting then I would not be happy about that.
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Old 27-08-2007, 22:53   #3 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

That image took AGES to load!

BG is cluttered + distracting, not helped by a fair amount of noise (from the high ISO). I think the BG should have been either clearer (more DoF) or more blurred (shorter DoF).

However, it's crystal clear + ultra-sharp on the FG subject, i.e. where it counts
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Old 28-08-2007, 06:48   #4 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Looks pretty good for 3200 to me.
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Old 28-08-2007, 07:30   #5 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte View Post
BG is cluttered + distracting, not helped by a fair amount of noise (from the high ISO). I think the BG should have been either clearer (more DoF) or more blurred (shorter DoF).
Give me a break, your critique is besides the point as well as being wide of the mark. You have completely neglected to consider context for a start. But anyway...the picture was posted (and probably shot) to show the noise levels at high iso's

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However, it's crystal clear + ultra-sharp on the FG subject, i.e. where it counts
Please...so the next time someone here posts a nice dreamy scene that just happens to have noise in the sky you wont be the first to raise that point? I can just see it now, "Crystal clear + ultra-sharp on the FG subject, ie just where it counts". Of course the background noise levels count!!! If everything else is perfect in a shot do you not think that will bring even more attention to the noise levels? I am sorry Charlotte but I personally disagree with just about every word of your post with the exception that the subject is in focus.

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Looks pretty good for 3200 to me.
It does Vinny but the noise patterns/characteristics are very different to what I am use to seeing. In the shot above it is showing as blotches which I personally find more distracting. The patterns in that are a long way removed from conventional film noise grain that most are used to. However if this is a improvement for Nikon users (and there is no doubt that many will be happy with the above) then that is a good step forward and should now allow them to shoot with confidence in lower light.

I think this argument is one much like the ones we see about the different colours that Canon and Nikon capture from the same scene. Both will do a great job but some will prefer the colours from the Nikon while others the Canon...its all personal. Nikon improving their cameras (and both the D3 and D300 are definite improvements) will only lead to more competition between them and Canon, that leads to the customers (no matter which camp they are in) becoming the overall winners
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Old 28-08-2007, 09:43   #6 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Without starting any flaming wars, how does it compare to Canon noise Steve ?. I've got no problem being a fan of how well Canon has always managed high noise so well, but have never got to a point of examining it in detail.
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Old 28-08-2007, 10:02   #7 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

At this stage in the game it's far to early to infer anything from the samples that have been posted around the web; we know nothing of the circumstances under which the shots were taken and if or how they were post-processed.

The fact is that these shots are taken using pre-production bodies and, furthermore, by photographers who will have had little time to familiarise themselves with setting up the camera to get the best from it.

I'll wait and see definitive reviews and samples appearing on the likes of robgalbraith.com, luminouslandscape.com, naturfotograf.com and evern dpreview.com before I pass judgement on the ISO performance of the D3 or D300 bodies.
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Old 28-08-2007, 10:06   #8 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

In all honesty its very difficult for me to do a fair comparison. The light I usually shoot in is not that great and from looking at the image above I would guess that it could have been shot at a lower iso without much trouble. obviously thats an assumption on my part but there is hardly a wrath of information included with the shot on which we can basa our conclusions. That's hardly a fair test of one against another. And as VP has stated, the shot is from a Pre Production body and being used by a shooter that probably has not had sufficient hands on time to assess it correctly.

Irrespective...at ISO 1600 I don't bother running any shots through noiseware or any other filter software, if you have exposed the shot properly it is that clean that its not necessary. At ISO3200 on my 20D you have to look at the shot full size to see the noise. If you then clicked the shot to view the whole image in your browser (as you can do with the above link) then at worse it looks much like the noise you would see in film (film grain). Its there of course, but its completely different to the noise seem in the Nikon above. I think I have provided example shots to you in the past that where taken at ISO3200 underground. If I recall correctly you where amazed at the lack of noise in the unedited versions.

Now this is where it all becomes subjective. I don't think the Nikon shot above is worse or better, it is just different in as much as it seems to look (to me at least) 'blotchy' in comparison to the Canon equivalent. As the Canon produces noise more like film grain I find it more acceptable and less intrusive...but that is probably only because I am used to seeing noise in that 'style' and so it fits in with the photo better. Maybe with time (or a firmware upgrade if they wish) if there is demand, Nikon may tweak the processing algorithms to make it appear more that way? It all depends on how it accepted by their user base. One thing is for certain, it's a definite improvement on what Nikon users have had in the past, so that has got to be a good thing.

That is the best I can do to explain my feelings on it without wanting to start a flame war.
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Old 28-08-2007, 10:39   #9 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

I'm not sure what I'm looking at here - I can't make out what the background is meant to be. What I do see is lots of banding - as if the image is taken through a chain-link fence - and also vignetting at the top corners. But again I don't know if that's down to the camera, the processing or what was actually in the background.

The jury may be out for some time...
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Old 28-08-2007, 11:36   #10 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Quote:
Originally Posted by silkstone View Post
I can't make out what the background is meant to be.
looks like rows of chairs to me with the occasional peeps dotted around. the bands are just the gaps between chairs. that's my take anyway.
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Old 28-08-2007, 13:07   #11 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Ah yes - that makes sense. I couldn't work it out until you said!
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Old 28-08-2007, 14:59   #12 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Quote:
Originally Posted by silkstone View Post
I'm not sure what I'm looking at here - I can't make out what the background is meant to be. What I do see is lots of banding - as if the image is taken through a chain-link fence - and also vignetting at the top corners. But again I don't know if that's down to the camera, the processing or what was actually in the background.
The shot is from the IAAF championships in Osaka, Japan - that's the only place in the world where D3 and D300 bodies are actively being used right now by select photographers whom have been pre-approved by Nikon.

Nikon Japan has a team on-site that is assisting these photographers in using not only the D3 bodies but also the new 400, 500 and 600mm VR lenses.

As I said before; these are pre-production bodies that are undergoing their first real-world tests before shipping begins. This is effectively beta-testing for the cameras before they are finalised... hence November being the availability date.
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Old 28-08-2007, 16:16   #13 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Irrespective...at ISO 1600 I don't bother running any shots through noiseware or any other filter software, if you have exposed the shot properly it is that clean that its not necessary. At ISO3200 on my 20D you have to look at the shot full size to see the noise. If you then clicked the shot to view the whole image in your browser (as you can do with the above link) then at worse it looks much like the noise you would see in film (film grain). Its there of course, but its completely different to the noise seem in the Nikon above. I think I have provided example shots to you in the past that where taken at ISO3200 underground. If I recall correctly you where amazed at the lack of noise in the unedited versions.
That is where Canon has had the lead for ages. It is the same story after processing but in fairness not so pronounced. Nikon does less noise reduction in camera. The finished results are a lot closer when you look at noise scores but the equivalent Canon still seems to edge it by about half a stop.
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Old 29-08-2007, 00:25   #14 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Give me a break, your critique is besides the point as well as being wide of the mark. You have completely neglected to consider context for a start.
My extremely brief 'critique' (if you can call it that) was merely to indicate that I don't consider this sample image to be a good demo for the D3, because it's not a great image. As VP said, an image has as much to do with the photographer + PP as it does with the camera itself. Therefore, this image can't reasonably be used to gauge the performance of a specific camera (in this case, the D3). No single image could, but as you pointed out ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
...the picture was posted (and probably shot) to show the noise levels at high iso's
... and I thought the noise level for an ISO of 3200 was pretty good in this shot, although of course it is noticeable. The problem for me was the confusion of the BG itself, which is why I mentioned it - I was trying to evaluate the noise level, but found the BG distractions more distracting than the noise! Apparently I was not the only one - silkstone + orangepeel also got distracted + side-tracked by the BG. Therefore, in the context of this thread, I don't believe my comment on the BG was beside the point.

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Please...so the next time someone here posts a nice dreamy scene that just happens to have noise in the sky you wont be the first to raise that point?
Yes, probably, if it's in the Critique section, which this isn't, nor is this a nice dreamy scene. Sports shots often suit having noise; nice dreamy scenes don't. To use your own phrase, you're comparing apples to oranges here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I can just see it now, "Crystal clear + ultra-sharp on the FG subject, ie just where it counts".
I found the sharpness + clarity of detail in the main subject worthy of comment because this is the sharpest image (or rather just the main subject, as that is the only part here that is in sharp focus) that I have yet seen from a DSLR, which to me is indeed impressive + worthy of note.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Of course the background noise levels count!!! If everything else is perfect in a shot do you not think that will bring even more attention to the noise levels?
Yes I do, + it's easily taken care of in PP. However, that obviously wasn't done here, because it's an exercise to show the noise level!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I am sorry Charlotte but I personally disagree with just about every word of your post with the exception that the subject is in focus.
My post was less than 4 lines long! The only bit you agreed with, you unfortunately misinterpreted ... I didn't say the subject was "in focus", my comment was not to do with focus (which is under the control of the photographer), it was to do with the quality of reproduction (which, by contrast, is reflective of the camera's performance).

The point I was making is that the picture-taking skills of the photographer (just look at the compo + the neither-here-nor-there DoF) are inadequate to fairly represent the performance of the camera (D3). However, the performance is clearly shown in one respect, being the sharp clarity of the point of main focus (the FG subject), i.e. the quality of reproduction of the part of the image which is in sharp focus. It's not the camera's fault that the photographer botched the BG, DoF + composition.
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Old 29-08-2007, 07:40   #15 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Quite frankly I fail to see how your reply above clarifies or backs up any of your supposed points.
Re-reading your first post, and then your explanation above, makes it look more like a desperate attempt to change the meanings.

Just take your 'critique' of the background in the first post as an example, in that your wrote
Quote:
BG is cluttered + distracting, not helped by a fair amount of noise (from the high ISO). I think the BG should have been either clearer (more DoF) or more blurred (shorter DoF).
Yet in the detailed reply that apparently means
Quote:
'to indicate that I don't consider this sample image to be a good demo for the D3, because it's not a great image.'.
How did I let that slip past, my mistake I guess

Then there is this little snippet from your detailed reply...
Quote:
"The only bit you agreed with, you unfortunately misinterpreted ... I didn't say the subject was "in focus", my comment was not to do with focus (which is under the control of the photographer), it was to do with the quality of reproduction (which, by contrast, is reflective of the camera's performance)."
and the bit it is explaining from your short reply...
Quote:
"However, it's crystal clear + ultra-sharp on the FG subject, i.e. where it counts"
I should be shot for being so dumb
There was I looking at a image shot in an arena with a guy and a piece of equipment being totally isolated from everything else in the shot, these two 'in focus' focal points are the only subjects and happen to be in the foreground. Which ever way you look at it that makes them the foreground subject!!! Last time I checked FG was an abbreviation for foreground, and 'ultra sharp' is a common term used and applied to vocalise excellent focus So yes, I can see where I went wrong there

Then you tell me that focus is under the control of the photographer (which makes me wondering if this image was shot in manual focus - you obviously know this for certain as that is what is being implied) while the quality of reproduction falls squarely in the camera's control. (only if this image has had no post processing or was shot in JPG originally - again you are implying that you know this for certain). But lets be honest, both of these points you couldn't possibly know unless you took and processed the shot yourself.

I am not going to continue this any further as I am sure your reply will contain more twists and turns than a 'who done it' novel.
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Old 29-08-2007, 09:15   #16 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

And I used to think I was articulate Obviously I needed to expand on the points I was raising in my original comment, but I thought members would know the context in which I was making reference to the BG + the subject (which I referred to as the FG subject simply because there's nothing in front of it, so to me it is in the FG!).

Wasn't making a deliberate attempt to change my own meaning!! I know what I meant, + what I meant is what I said I meant!! I was just trying to clarify my meaning to you, since you took such a deep interest in my very short post + managed to twist what I said into something you thought I ought to have meant. Or something. I'm not quite sure why you decided to attack my very short + seemingly inoffensive comment, or indeed how you managed to find so much in it to attack! It didn't seem to offend anybody else, + if anyone else was confused by anything I said, they were content to just glide over it without issue.

I shan't clarify my clarification, which you also (unsurprisingly) found fault with, since I'm confident that anyone who is not trying to be awkward knows exactly what I mean when I say that the photographer has some control over the focus (is that worded better for you?) (even in non-manual modes, he controls what the camera is focusing on when he points the camera!) whereas the quality of reproduction is down to the camera. I'm confident that I'm not the only one who sees the difference between the two.

Anyway, glad to hear that your critique of my 'critique' is finally over
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Old 29-08-2007, 12:04   #17 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Whooaaa Nelly! I think we'd best call the fire brigade on this thread, eh?

Getting back on topic:

I downloaded the file, opened it up in Photoshop and ran NoiseNinja on it; NN reported a noise index of 25 (15 chroma, 10 luma) which is execptionally low for a shot apparently taken at ISO3200.

By comparison, on the rare instances where I've had to push to HI-2 on my D2X, I've ended up with a Noise Index of around 150 or so (80 luma, 70 chroma)

It's not really a scientific comparison, but I can go out on a limb here and say IF the D3 image hasn't been ran through noise reduction software or processed in any way, then its ISO noise performance is better than the D2X by a factor of between 5 to 7 times. So - the noise on a D3 at ISO3200 appears to be the same as you would expect on a D2X at around ISO200.

Caveat: the above is speculative and based on a D3 sample of unknown origin. I'll wait for real-world reviews but I hope that my theory/speculation bears fruit

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Old 31-08-2007, 11:57   #18 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

More D3 samples... ISO 200 - 12800

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Old 31-08-2007, 12:05   #19 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Again with the caveat if they are real they are seriously impressive.
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Old 05-09-2007, 17:13   #20 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Hello Soupdragon it appears that you have not posted on our forums in several weeks, why not take a few moments to ask a question, help provide a solution, upload a picture to show to the community or just engage in a conversation with another member in any one of our community forums?

As instructed above:

I have to say this is by far the most amusing thread I have read for a long time.
Thanks all! I needed cheering up!
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Old 05-09-2007, 21:17   #21 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Ah, good to have Soupy back
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Old 06-09-2007, 05:51   #22 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Would you like to see some of my pictures?
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Old 06-09-2007, 06:45   #23 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Always
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Old 06-09-2007, 08:36   #24 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Hello Soupy.
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Old 06-09-2007, 09:40   #25 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

Quote:
Originally Posted by silkstone View Post
Hello Soupy.
Hello Silky, good to hear from you again.

"You're not still mad at me are you?"
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Old 06-09-2007, 09:48   #26 (permalink)
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Re: D3 sample image

I can't remember ever being mad at you!

I always look like this.
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