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Cameras, Lenses and Accessories: Discuss Oh no! not again!...I am sure this has been debated many a time but, is anyone facing the same dilemma as me. I ...
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Old 20-10-2006, 19:50   #1 (permalink)
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Oh no! not again!

I am sure this has been debated many a time but, is anyone facing the same dilemma as me.
I can't make up my mind between the 400D and D80.
The D80 is drop dead sexy but pound for pixel the 400D knocks it into a cocked hat.
Any body have an opinion on this.
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Old 20-10-2006, 20:39   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

I'd like to hear why and how you feel that "pound for pixel the 400D knocks it into a cocked hat." as thats a very broad and general statement. What facts/features are you basing it on?
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Old 20-10-2006, 23:02   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

I cant see what sexy has to do with cameras,is this some kind of fettish, or just the wrong use of aword?
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Old 21-10-2006, 00:06   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I'd like to hear why and how you feel that "pound for pixel the 400D knocks it into a cocked hat." as thats a very broad and general statement. What facts/features are you basing it on?
Probably the fact that the 400D is about £100 cheaper than the D80.

However, the D80 has features that the 400D hasn't (e.g. 2 external LCDs and spot metering) so just comparing them on price isn't a wise idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxesbrew View Post
I cant see what sexy has to do with cameras,is this some kind of fettish, or just the wrong use of aword?
All Nikon cameras are sexy.
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Old 21-10-2006, 09:57   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

When I say sexy I mean general cosmetic appeal, I looked at the back of the 400D and the display looks like it's stuck on top of the old 350D.
I handled a 400D in the shop and operating the buttons on the left I found myself pushing the lcd surround.
Reviews and sample images suggest for most uses there is very little difference in final image quality, that said, I would like to see how much info is ditched because of the NEF files being compressed. This probably accounts for the D80 loosing out on dynamic range.
The other important thing (to me) the D80 lacks is true MLU, even one embedded in a custom function is better than nothing.
That said, I am sure the Nikon engineers have checked the decaying sine time and decided .4 of a second is long enough for practical purposes.
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Old 21-10-2006, 09:59   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxesbrew View Post
I cant see what sexy has to do with cameras,is this some kind of fettish, or just the wrong use of aword?
If this is not too much of a personal question, where in West Sussex are you?
I live near Emsworth just west of Chichester.
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Old 21-10-2006, 11:13   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Both cameras are incredible value for money & most people would be happy with either. I expect most people will either stick to the brand they already use, or go on how each camera feels in their hands. Being a Nikon man I've become used to the layout & feel of this brand, so when I tried the 5D vs the D200, I felt more at home with the latter. I'm sure a Canon person would have gone for the former.
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Old 21-10-2006, 12:07   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Cosmetic appeal i can understand,functionality is most important to me .i am very happy with my NIKON d 50.
I live near Midhurst.
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Old 21-10-2006, 16:26   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxesbrew View Post
Cosmetic appeal i can understand,functionality is most important to me .i am very happy with my NIKON d 50.
I live near Midhurst.
Midhurst with the duck pond?
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Old 21-10-2006, 17:07   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Yes near there
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Old 27-11-2006, 23:23   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

I have canon gear but had a go with a nikon D200 at college. It is very well built and feels a lot more comfortable in the hand compared to canon models. I have not handled the nikon D80, i dont know if it is of similar build to D200. After handling the nikon, the canon models dont feel as well made and dont feel good to hold. (have used 20D,30D,10D,300D, and 350D) If i was starting out again i would go with nikon. A friend of mine has just bought D50 with kit lens and i am very impressed with the quality. I find the 350/400D just too small personally, dont know how the D80 compares to these.

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Old 28-11-2006, 06:28   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

On tactility the D80 and D200 are similar with the noticeable difference being weight.
Regarding the D80:
Why-o-why Nikon insist on compressing raw files (which is an oxymoron) is beyond me.
0.4 seconds mirror lock up, what were they thinking?
Not including a real raw converter as part of the package is real penny pinching and will not win them any friends.
Regarding the 400D:
Talk about a rush job on the design front, keep the original body injection moulding but re-core it to accomodate a bigger lcd, nice idea but at the cost of button ergonomics.
An extra 1mm on the grip length, wow! steady on there.
Getting rid of the second LCD was a retrograde step as far as I am concerned, running a big lcd more of the time has got to have shortened the battery life.
And a personal pet hate for someone who has chubby fingers, I find it truly irritating trying to get the cf card out of the camera without bending the door off its hinges.
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Old 28-11-2006, 14:15   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

May I suggest you forget completely comparing these two cameras? It is a pointless exercise quite frankly. The 400D and the D80 both take outstanding pictures and both have bags of control and usability so what exactly do you want to define them with? Are you going to be extremely happy no matter which one you buy? Absolutely you are.

So, look to your future needs. Whatever you buy now is likely to be the system you stay with forever or close to it. Once people have bought lenses, they rarely switch systems as it is an expensive business to replace lenses. I am a Canon man, I think Canon lenses are the bees knees. I am sure a Nikon man thinks exactly the same. Why? Because they both are!

If you want to save some money towards a decent lens, go for the 400D as it will cost less than a D80. Whatever you use to make your decision, it need not be on which camera will take the best pictures. Both of them will take superb shots.

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Old 29-11-2006, 06:09   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Hmmmm! an interesting opinion but.............

These two cameras sit squarely in the same band between P&S and Prosumer.
They share the same dot count and can both support a vast range of optics.
Cost is always thrown into the equation but, when you realise the 400 is basically the same size as the 350, it becomes obvious I/others will buy a battery grip just to improve the cameras handling.
So, body vs body and using Jessops as a standard source, and with the above borne in mind we see:
Canon 400D + Grip £618, Nikon D80 £542.
The question that is never answered is " how much do I lose through Nikon compressing the raw files?"
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Old 29-11-2006, 09:08   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soupdragon View Post
The question that is never answered is " how much do I lose through Nikon compressing the raw files?"
I remember this debate when I had my D70. From memory the main issue was around the impact it had on recovering clipped highlights, ( even though if you could recover there would be considerable noise). At the time it seemed such a acute scenario that could be overcome by the likes of bracketing the shot etc.

I'm assuming this has improved over time ? Also, does this effect the non pro, who will be buying this camera , that much ? Personally I think although not perfect, it has taken in depth tests with graphs & the likes to prove any loss of quality in certain circumstances (eg clip levels of blown highlights), that joe public won't be able to tell the difference IMHO.

What do you reckon ?
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Old 29-11-2006, 11:23   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

The long and the short of it is, and this is only my opinion, if I pay for something that is supposed to give me a, I dunno, a 10 stop EV range, I expect to be able to capture images that span those limits.
What I don't expect is to have information discarded because someone at Nikon thought it was not needed.
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Old 29-11-2006, 15:00   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Well thats made your choice of camera sorted then .....unless you want to get to D200 level & then you can choose between compressed or uncompressed RAW files
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Old 29-11-2006, 17:05   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

There is possibly bad news for all D200 owners as an article I read today suggests that only the output from the D1 range is truly uncompressed.
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Old 29-11-2006, 17:08   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Here is the link:

Truth about Nikon Compressed RAW

It's a bit too technical for me so it may be a pack of lies.
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Old 29-11-2006, 17:34   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Hmmm, must admit that I've not seen any of the discussion but I would be very surprised if the compression affected the quality. You're still getting the same benefits of using a RAW format.

The argument seems a bit like someone suggesting that they didn't like interpolated colour without realising that nearly all images are interpolated due to the way the sensor works (resulting in 60% colour being "created").

But modern algorithms are more than up to both interpolation and compression
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Old 29-11-2006, 17:46   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

I don't think you will be suffering the same truncated dynamic range issues if you are using a foveon sensor.
The problem occurs when you are trying to recover highlight detail only to find no data exists for it.
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Old 29-11-2006, 17:55   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soupdragon View Post
I don't think you will be suffering the same truncated dynamic range issues if you are using a foveon sensor.
But your concern is sensor technology irrelevant!

Quote:
The problem occurs when you are trying to recover highlight detail only to find no data exists for it
But compression does not mean, nor imply, removal of data. Just the efficient use of space.

Whilst you can compress a JPG to see loss of data, I'd be gobsmacked if Nikon allowed any loss of actual data to occur. Strangely, I'd be more concerned at the processing time (and corresponding power useage) taken to compress the data (and another step where things could, potentially, go wrong). I'd prefer a more rapid clearing of buffer than a little extra space!
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Old 29-11-2006, 19:43   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

I think you will find it is a "lossy" system.
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Old 29-11-2006, 22:08   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

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I think you will find it is a "lossy" system.
Oh! OK! Tho' I'm damned if I can see why!
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Old 30-11-2006, 05:56   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Oh no! not again!

Well, I have to admit, the technical whys and wherfores are beyond my understanding.
There are a number of articles on the interweb relating to this subject and, picking out the bits I understand, leads me to think the files are not lossless.
I was hoping for an idiot proof explanation but I guess they hadn't banked on an idiot of my calibre.
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