Pixalo Photography Community

Go Back   Pixalo Photography Community > Photography Forums > Cameras, Lenses and Accessories

Cameras, Lenses and Accessories: Discuss What am I doing wrong?...Right I've decided to take my photography one step further and decided to start experimenting with full manual. However I'm ...
Welcome to the Pixalo Photography Community. As a Guest you are free to browse the site, but see what extras you get as a Member here.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-04-2006, 13:43   #1 (permalink)
Quite Chatty
 
Kinobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 53
Kinobe is on a distinguished roadKinobe is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
What am I doing wrong?

Right I've decided to take my photography one step further and decided to start experimenting with full manual.

However I'm doing something wrong I feel. I normally shoot on S or A to which is dependant on the environment or subject I'm shooting.

I switched to full manual and decided to set the aperture/shutter speed and white balance (which is set on auto) to the exact same settings to see if I could replicate the picture I shot in shutter priority. But the picture came out darker?

Shooting in S/A will give me options to change exposure by stops, thats correct yeah? but you as the photographer have to set these. When I first shot in S mode I decided not to change the exposure stop and did the exact same in Full Manual mode but the picture again was all dark.

There must be more settings going on in S/A modes that I'm unaware off?

Any advice and tips on where I'm going wrong is much appreciated. My Kit is as follows :

Nikon D100 + Nikon D70
Nikkor 24-85mm F2.8-4
Sigma 70-200mm F2.8
Nikkor 50mm F1.8

Thanks again

Ed
__________________
My Photography : Email Me Here
Kinobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 14:11   #2 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,250
Steve is just really nice
Steve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really nice

Image edit - ASK
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
If you set everything at exactly the same settings and the conditions for the shot were also exactly the same then the two pictures should be identical. From what you are saying the other main variable that you could have missed was the metering type, usually cameras have several different settings depending on the make and model. Average, center weighted or spot metering will all return different setting for the same scene but as you were using the same settings for the same shot then the results should have been the same too.

Can you tell us what the shots where and how you set them up? Subject, time of day, was tripod used etc?
__________________
I can count all the way up to Potato.
Steve is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 14:28   #3 (permalink)
Feet under the table
 
Fangman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ely
Posts: 2,013
Fangman is on a distinguished roadFangman is on a distinguished roadFangman is on a distinguished roadFangman is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
S And A settings usually use evalutive (the whole screen averaged) or centre weighted ( about the centre circle of 1/3 -1/4 of the screen). In manual it may have settled on spot metering which is the area of the central focus point. If you check by focusing on varying points in the scene that would have filled the view finder you will see the exposure guide vary markedly. You can chose from the menu what type of metering you want - .
Fangman is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 14:50   #4 (permalink)
Quite Chatty
 
Kinobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 53
Kinobe is on a distinguished roadKinobe is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
If you set everything at exactly the same settings and the conditions for the shot were also exactly the same then the two pictures should be identical. From what you are saying the other main variable that you could have missed was the metering type, usually cameras have several different settings depending on the make and model. Average, center weighted or spot metering will all return different setting for the same scene but as you were using the same settings for the same shot then the results should have been the same too.

Can you tell us what the shots where and how you set them up? Subject, time of day, was tripod used etc?
Thanks both for your help

I was taking pictures of a bed side table in the exact same conditions. It was mid afternoon, plenty of light with me even turning on two little lamps.

Settings were.....

F4.5
1/100
AB - Auto

I wasn't using a tripod it was handheld but would this make a difference?. I was standing in the same spot.

I will look at these different metering modes, would shooting on A/S modes changes these automatically? or does it just stay on automatic?

Sorry for these nooby questions, but its baffling me a bit as I must be doing something wrong!

Ed
Kinobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 14:57   #5 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,250
Steve is just really nice
Steve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really nice

Image edit - ASK
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Unless you are using a fixed point to shoot from for comparison then you are introducing human elements that are variable. You may be pointing the camera at what you think is the same point but it could be slightly off and if you have metered off a duller point when on auto, the picture will be darker when in manual.

If you have a tripod, set up the shot again, preferably in a room with say the curtains closed and just room lights on, take the two shots one on manual and one on auto with the same setting and the results should be identical.

I have to wonder what you are hoping to learn from the exercise though?
Steve is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 14:57   #6 (permalink)
Forum Regular
 
Bachs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montrose NE Scotland
Posts: 918
Bachs is on a distinguished roadBachs is on a distinguished roadBachs is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
I would also review the on-camera histogram (presuming your camera has one) to check exposure until you get the hang of it.
I always shoot manual and still use the histogram, which isn't hundred % accurate but is at least a good guide.
Bachs is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 14:58   #7 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,250
Steve is just really nice
Steve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really nice

Image edit - ASK
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Also are you shooting JPG or RAW? If raw then during the conversion your software could be applying compensations automatically.
Steve is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 15:40   #8 (permalink)
Quite Chatty
 
Kinobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 53
Kinobe is on a distinguished roadKinobe is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Unless you are using a fixed point to shoot from for comparison then you are introducing human elements that are variable. You may be pointing the camera at what you think is the same point but it could be slightly off and if you have metered off a duller point when on auto, the picture will be darker when in manual.

If you have a tripod, set up the shot again, preferably in a room with say the curtains closed and just room lights on, take the two shots one on manual and one on auto with the same setting and the results should be identical.

I have to wonder what you are hoping to learn from the exercise though?
Arr I c let me explain!

I've been looking at range of indoor event photography exifs of the subject people. One photographer was shooting using the same aperture/shutter speed throughout and once he found the right combination the results were to say the least excellent and consistant. Obviously it depends on the situation/lighting/environment.

The last few times I have shot in manual, pictures have become underexposed compared to shooting on shutter/aperture priority and I'm wanting to experiment with DOF further. I spose I'm just trying to push my photography knowledge/experience further.

I'm shooting on JPG currently. I've heard many advantages of shooting in RAW especially when it comes to exposure. So I might have to give that a go. Is it true that Nikon have released a new version of their raw editing software?

Thanks for the tips and all your help, I think I'll have a go with tripod.

Ed
Kinobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 15:54   #9 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,250
Steve is just really nice
Steve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really nice

Image edit - ASK
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Ahh I see and understand much more now. In that case may I suggest that to take some more control over your photography that you switch to aperture priority and then let the camera work out the shutter speeds needed to get the correct exposures. This way you can learn how the different apertures affect the depth of field and be creative in using that without needing to worry about under or over exposed shots.

The only other thing you should keep an eye on if you take these steps is your shutter speed, try to keep it at suitably fast settings to keep camera shake at bay or indeed stop motion blur if you don't want it. To maintain shutter speeds you might need to increase your ISO setting depending on the light available. Try to use as low as possible ISO at all times though to keep noise levels at a minimum

Learning manual is a great target but you will get there much quicker if you understand the steps in between. Learn to walk before you run
Steve is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 17:13   #10 (permalink)
Quite Chatty
 
Kinobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 53
Kinobe is on a distinguished roadKinobe is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Ahh I see and understand much more now. In that case may I suggest that to take some more control over your photography that you switch to aperture priority and then let the camera work out the shutter speeds needed to get the correct exposures. This way you can learn how the different apertures affect the depth of field and be creative in using that without needing to worry about under or over exposed shots.

The only other thing you should keep an eye on if you take these steps is your shutter speed, try to keep it at suitably fast settings to keep camera shake at bay or indeed stop motion blur if you don't want it. To maintain shutter speeds you might need to increase your ISO setting depending on the light available. Try to use as low as possible ISO at all times though to keep noise levels at a minimum

Learning manual is a great target but you will get there much quicker if you understand the steps in between. Learn to walk before you run
Thanks for the reply. I've got the general gist of how DOF works and have had some "okay" results from my understanding. However in photography I find I'm never happy with the shot I produce, there have been instances where I say "the dof could of been slightly shallower" to which I then go out my way to try and achieve this.

When I shoot people on aperture priority I have problems with hand shake as the camera works out the desired shutter speed. Most of the time it will automatically shoot at 1/30 and tbh my hands arn't consitantly steady and the picture imo becomes ruined. However to eliminate this I could use a tripod and remote but I'm going to try and work on my photography stance which includes a breathing technique.

By going to manual I'll be able to experiment shooting people at different apertures whilst upping the shutter speed notches at a time (vice versa) to see what result I get which in turn will allow me to control DOF. Once I have found a setting I feel comfortable at, I could possibly develop my technique and apply this to my shooting environment.

Don't get me wrong okay? I'm not one for being bigheaded/boastful. I'm far from it tbh. But I'm always out there to improve my self and most of all learn.

Thanks again for all your help and advice!

Ed
Kinobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 17:31   #11 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,250
Steve is just really nice
Steve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really nice

Image edit - ASK
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinobe
When I shoot people on aperture priority I have problems with hand shake as the camera works out the desired shutter speed. Most of the time it will automatically shoot at 1/30 and tbh my hands arn't consitantly steady and the picture imo becomes ruined. However to eliminate this I could use a tripod and remote but I'm going to try and work on my photography stance which includes a breathing technique.
There are three things that directly affect the exposureÖyour aperture, your shutter speed and the ISO setting. You should be controlling the equipment to use the settings that you want to not the other way around. By factoring in and altering the ISO as well you will probably be able to get the shutter speed that you would like to use with your chosen aperture as well, thus removing camera shake. Thatís why I mentioned it earlier in my previous post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinobe
By going to manual I'll be able to experiment shooting people at different apertures whilst upping the shutter speed notches at a time (vice versa) to see what result I get which in turn will allow me to control DOF. Once I have found a setting I feel comfortable at, I could possibly develop my technique and apply this to my shooting environment.
Sure, trial and error is a good teacher but knowing what the equipment offers in terms of features to allow you to attain your goals is also important. I can see you understand the relationship between shutter speed and aperture but without factoring in ISO to give you the space and facility to maintain minimum shutter speeds, then no amount of playing will return the results that you want consistently. You will either get underexposed/overexposed as you alter the settings independently or blurred results due to slow shutter speeds; these are the complaints that you opened the thread with are they not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinobe
Don't get me wrong okay? I'm not one for being bigheaded/boastful. I'm far from it tbh. But I'm always out there to improve my self and most of all learn.

Thanks again for all your help and advice!

Ed
Arenít we all out to learn and improve, thatís why this site was set up
Steve is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 18:19   #12 (permalink)
Quite Chatty
 
Kinobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 53
Kinobe is on a distinguished roadKinobe is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
There are three things that directly affect the exposure…your aperture, your shutter speed and the ISO setting. You should be controlling the equipment to use the settings that you want to not the other way around. By factoring in and altering the ISO as well you will probably be able to get the shutter speed that you would like to use with your chosen aperture as well, thus removing camera shake. That’s why I mentioned it earlier in my previous post.



Sure, trial and error is a good teacher but knowing what the equipment offers in terms of features to allow you to attain your goals is also important. I can see you understand the relationship between shutter speed and aperture but without factoring in ISO to give you the space and facility to maintain minimum shutter speeds, then no amount of playing will return the results that you want consistently. You will either get underexposed/overexposed as you alter the settings independently or blurred results due to slow shutter speeds; these are the complaints that you opened the thread with are they not?



Aren’t we all out to learn and improve, that’s why this site was set up
The kind of response I'd expect from a well educated photographer. Thanks again for all the help.

From what you have written I've learnt that by experimenting with iso it will help me reduce my camera shake problem? is this right? Tbh I havn't really played much with iso speeds except in different light situations and that as you know it can generate noise in darker situations. But dark environments would see me using my Nikon F1.8 50mm, however again it depends on the shooting situation.

This is going to be a far out question here but in your opinion, if I was shooting an outdoor event which included people what settings (iso,a,s) would you use or at least start with? Lets say its cloudy and I'd be standing probably about 1.5 metres away from the subject using a f2.8-4 24-85mm. One photo I'd like to generate shallow dof with the people/person in focus and the second photo I everything sharp? One factor here would see me adjusting the aperture for both shots. But what about shutter speeds and iso?, shutter speeds will see me being able to freezeframe the subject but high shutter speeds would probably not be needed if I could avoid my camera shake So I assume this is where upping the iso could help? and steadier hands?

Apologies if that was a bit of a long winded newbie scenario. But photography is a minefield for me but the subject (photography) motivates me to learn as I enjoy it.

Thanks again.

Ed
Kinobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 18:46   #13 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,250
Steve is just really nice
Steve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really nice

Image edit - ASK
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinobe
From what you have written I've learnt that by experimenting with iso it will help me reduce my camera shake problem? is this right? Tbh I havn't really played much with iso speeds except in different light situations and that as you know it can generate noise in darker situations. But dark environments would see me using my Nikon F1.8 50mm, however again it depends on the shooting situation.
Let me clarify a little for you, to get a well exposed photograph you need to allow enough light to hit the sensor (in digital terms) for a long enough time. This is done by either opening up the lens wider (lower F Stop) or leaving the shutter open for longer. The first is the aperture and the second obviously shutter speed but by altering either of those we are changing the way the final photo looks. Now in the old days of film, there were several different ISO ratings, these referred to how sensitive each film was to light. The more sensitive, the higher the ISO and the less light was needed to get a properly exposed result. In Sensor terms the ISO is an electronic control over how sensitive it becomes, so if used correctly by increasing the ISO (sensitivity) you can get a properly exposed photo in less time without altering the F stop. This allows you to increase your shutter speed to eliminate camera shake at the cost of increased noise, although with most modern cameraís the noise is relatively low and can be controlled with ease.

So if you are shooting say in aperture priority at ISO 100, F8 and the shutter speed for a correctly exposed shot should be 1/30th sec, this would be too slow and introduce probable camera shake ruining the results. By altering the ISO to make the sensor more sensitive to light we can still shoot at F8 (to get the same depth of field but with a shutter speed of 1/60th to remove the camera shake. The ISO would now be higher and introduce slightly more noise though, as always there has to be compromises somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinobe
This is going to be a far out question here but in your opinion, if I was shooting an outdoor event which included people what settings (iso,a,s) would you use or at least start with? Lets say its cloudy and I'd be standing probably about 1.5 metres away from the subject using a f2.8-4 24-85mm. One photo I'd like to generate shallow dof with the people/person in focus and the second photo I everything sharp? One factor here would see me adjusting the aperture for both shots. But what about shutter speeds and iso?, shutter speeds will see me being able to freezeframe the subject but high shutter speeds would probably not be needed if I could avoid my camera shake So I assume this is where upping the iso could help? and steadier hands?
It is impossible to begin guessing at settings but for the shallow depth of field shot with the lens being wide open (you would be using a small F number) the sensor will be getting a fair amount of light and thus I would expect not to adjust anything to get decent shutter speeds in normal cloudy daylight. For the large depth of field say at F18, I would set my camera to aperture priority at ISO 100, F18 and half depress the shutter release to get a shutter speed, if that is below the speed I required I would increase the ISO until it was fast enough to suit. Each time I adjust it I would again half depress the shutter to get the new reading. Its quite a simple process and will return a correctly exposed shot without fail.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinobe
Apologies if that was a bit of a long winded newbie scenario. But photography is a minefield for me but the subject (photography) motivates me to learn as I enjoy it.

Thanks again.

Ed
I am sure that this thread will help others as well as it contains information that everyone can use if they didnít already know it.
Steve is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 19:24   #14 (permalink)
Quite Chatty
 
Kinobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 53
Kinobe is on a distinguished roadKinobe is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Thanks again for all your help. I am going to go away with this "new learnt" knowledge and put it into practise. I will certainly flick the camera back to aperture priority and take onboard your method of half depressing to get a read out then work it out from there and if its lower (the shutter read out) then up the iso.

Most of the time I've been shooting people on shutter priority due to camera shake problems. 1/80 1/100 I've been comfortable at, anything below is tbh hit and miss for shake which is why I've started to learn a breathing technique as well as a stance. However shooting on shutter priority I've noticed you loose the DOF but then thats expected in cases.

Is there a table/guide for correctly exposed shots? as in your example of iso100, f8, would equal 1/30sec. I think this may/could help me?

Thanks

Ed
Kinobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 19:28   #15 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,250
Steve is just really nice
Steve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really nice

Image edit - ASK
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinobe
Is there a table/guide for correctly exposed shots? as in your example of iso100, f8, would equal 1/30sec. I think this may/could help me?
No Ed my example was hypothetical and doesn't necessarily mean that the picture would be exposed correctly at those settings, it depends on the light at the time of the shoot. Thatís why you need to alter the three variables on the day to get the correct results.
Steve is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 19:37   #16 (permalink)
Quite Chatty
 
Kinobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 53
Kinobe is on a distinguished roadKinobe is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
No Ed my example was hypothetical and doesn't necessarily mean that the picture would be exposed correctly at those settings, it depends on the light at the time of the shoot. Thatís why you need to alter the three variables on the day to get the correct results.
Just goes to show how much I know and need to learn tbh I was however thinking it was hypothetical, however it (you) sounded rather convincing and I'm quite gullable at times

I've also been reading up on how a flash can help remove camera shake.

Ed
Kinobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 20:07   #17 (permalink)
CT
Feet under the table
 
CT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: West Mids UK
Posts: 3,368
CT is an unknown quantity at this point

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
I think the first thing you need to understand is that Aperture and Shutter Priority Modes aren't there for the benefit of incapable photographers - when they first began to appear on cameras, pros hungrily snapped them up for the quicker working options these modes gave them. I rarely shoot in Manual Mode, preferring to use AP and SP depending on whether DOF or shutter speed is the most important consideration.

I honestly can't understand the preoccupation with wanting to shoot in Manual Mode, when you have Exposure Compensation and Programme Override available to you in AP and SP - both will give just as much control as Manual.

There are occasions when Manual is an advantage. Imagine you're taking shots of your gf with the sun at her back. In Manual Mode, you simply move right up till her face fills the viewfinder and balance the display. You can now retreat to where you want take your shots from, ignoring the fact that the exposure display is wildly out of balance when looking at the wider picture, as you know the main subject- your gf - will be properly exposed. Furthermore as long as the light doesn't change you can take as many shots as you like, moving further away or closer, and the exposures will still be good, being taken from her face, which is the bit that counts.

BUT... in AP or SP you have the Exposure Lock Button, Exposure Compensation and Programme Override, all at your disposal to achieve the same thing. If you're fortunate to have Spot Metering too, then that often makes these sort of shots much easier to meter for from a distance.

With regard to your other problem, the truth is that that the limit of what we can take hand held is always governed by the shutter speed in the first instance. There is no getting past the minimum shutter speed we can safely hand hold at, and for most of us the working rule of thumb is that the shutter speed equates to the focal length of the lens in use which gives us

50mm 1/50
100mm 1/00
500mm 1/500

And so on. Often we're forced to increase ISO just to get the bare minimum hand holdable shutter speed with a particular lens used wide open. Any thought of using smaller apertures with moving subjects is right out of the window anyway in low light conditions - without using flash.

The whole of photography is really a compromise between what you want to do and what the prevailing light will allow you to do.
__________________
Canon 1DMk2N/ EF 50mm 1.4/ EF 17-40L/ EF180L Macro/ EF100-400L
Canon 20D /17-85 EF-S
580EX Flashgun/ Gitzo Explorer

CT is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 20:25   #18 (permalink)
Quite Chatty
 
Kinobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 53
Kinobe is on a distinguished roadKinobe is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT
I think the first thing you need to understand is that Aperture and Shutter Priority Modes aren't there for the benefit of incapable photographers - when they first began to appear on cameras, pros hungrily snapped them up for the quicker working options these modes gave them. I rarely shoot in Manual Mode, preferring to use AP and SP depending on whether DOF or shutter speed is the most important consideration.

I honestly can't understand the preoccupation with wanting to shoot in Manual Mode, when you have Exposure Compensation and Programme Override available to you in AP and SP - both will give just as much control as Manual.

There are occasions when Manual is an advantage. Imagine you're taking shots of your gf with the sun at her back. In Manual Mode, you simply move right up till her face fills the viewfinder and balance the display. You can now retreat to where you want take your shots from, ignoring the fact that the exposure display is wildly out of balance when looking at the wider picture, as you know the main subject- your gf - will be properly exposed. Furthermore as long as the light doesn't change you can take as many shots as you like, moving further away or closer, and the exposures will still be good, being taken from her face, which is the bit that counts.

BUT... in AP or SP you have the Exposure Lock Button, Exposure Compensation and Programme Override, all at your disposal to achieve the same thing. If you're fortunate to have Spot Metering too, then that often makes these sort of shots much easier to meter for from a distance.

With regard to your other problem, the truth is that that the limit of what we can take hand held is always governed by the shutter speed in the first instance. There is no getting past the minimum shutter speed we can safely hand hold at, and for most of us the working rule of thumb is that the shutter speed equates to the focal length of the lens in use which gives us

50mm 1/50
100mm 1/00
500mm 1/500

And so on. Often we're forced to increase ISO just to get the bare minimum hand holdable shutter speed with a particular lens used wide open. Any thought of using smaller apertures with moving subjects is right out of the window anyway in low light conditions - without using flash.

The whole of photography is really a compromise between what you want to do and what the prevailing light will allow you to do.
Firstly I apologise if I came across as "photographers using sp / ap are incapable" as that is 100% not the case and believe me that's not what I intended. But I realise now, the post could of been interpreted in many ways, so sorry for that.

The reason I wanted to use manual was just to experiment and to increase my knowledge. But reading through this thread has made it clear to me that my knowledge in the area of sp/ap was slack which therefore now tells me to concentrate on exposing well and getting the caputures I intended to shoot before acutally turning to manual and now I'm not to sure I even will, until/or a situation arises where I actually have to flick to manual.

With a flash I have read that this will indeed reduce camera shake. Not to sure if this is a noobie question but is there a general rule of thumb for focal lengths and shutter speeds when using (a) flash? I'm thnking however this is a newbie question cos it reall depends on what settings you set on your dedicated flash gun or infact any flash for that matter. One way to know is experiment.

I will definately try upping the iso if I'm finding the shutter read-out is less that expected which will help reduce camera shake when shooting on ap mode.

Thanks again for your help to CT, most helpful indeed.

Ed
Kinobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 21:11   #19 (permalink)
CT
Feet under the table
 
CT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: West Mids UK
Posts: 3,368
CT is an unknown quantity at this point

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinobe
Firstly I apologise if I came across as "photographers using sp / ap are incapable" as that is 100% not the case and believe me that's not what I intended. But I realise now, the post could of been interpreted in many ways, so sorry for that.
No probs Ed, I never thought you meant that anyway. There was only Manual when I learned, but I was quick to appreciate the advantages of AP and SP when they first appeared. A lot of newbie photographers have never known anything other than multi -mode cameras, and must wonder about the advantages of shooting in Manual. Worry about Manual when you've got a bit more experience and use it if you find a need, not because someone tells you it's the only way to shoot, because it really isn't, providing you fully understand all the options that AP and Sp give you.

Quote:
With a flash I have read that this will indeed reduce camera shake. Not to sure if this is a noobie question but is there a general rule of thumb for focal lengths and shutter speeds when using (a) flash? I'm thnking however this is a newbie question cos it reall depends on what settings you set on your dedicated flash gun or infact any flash for that matter. One way to know is experiment.
Think of a modern electronic flashgun as sunlight in your pocket. Yes - it can give you faster shutter speeds and enable you to use smaller apertures, just by providing lots more light. I'm going to avoid trying to answer the questions you raised about flash, as to do the questions justice is a massive undertaking. Modern dedicated flashguns are now so integrated with the camera, that flash has never been easier than it is today, often needing little intervention from the user, so go ahead and practice, you'll see what I mean..

I hope that hepls a little mate. I do actually sympathise with the newcomer who has to embrace all this technology and muti- mode cameras in one go. Being an old fart means I've been able to assimilate it all as it came along.... gradually.
CT is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 21:23   #20 (permalink)
Feet under the table
 
Fangman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ely
Posts: 2,013
Fangman is on a distinguished roadFangman is on a distinguished roadFangman is on a distinguished roadFangman is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
I should think that this series of Q & A has provided a useful tutorial for many coming to photography. I made my tribe start with fully manual cameras to give them some understanding of what the auto settings are trying to do. Reading the answers makes one think of how would I answer that, so it could be understood - a good learning process for the instructor as well as student. Congratulations to CT for the time given to us all!
Fangman is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 21:30   #21 (permalink)
Forum Regular
 
RobertP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Woodford Essex
Posts: 838
RobertP is on a distinguished roadRobertP is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
I use aperture priority mostly. With flash I use manual and let the flash decide how much light for a correct exposure. i have never used shutter priority but would imagine it is the way to go for shots to show action.

Just wanted to say that (as said by Steve) this will be a very useful thread for anyone learning their camera. I started out with a manual SLR with a little needle meter for exposure built in and manual focus of course, as CT said, without that this would all be more mysterious to me too....but I'm still learning
__________________
20D. Kit lens. Canon 50mm 1.4. Sigma 150mm 2.8 macro. Tamron 28-75 XR Di. Canon 70-200 f4L . Canon 100-400L. 580EX.
RobertP is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 21:36   #22 (permalink)
Quite Chatty
 
Kinobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 53
Kinobe is on a distinguished roadKinobe is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT
No probs Ed, I never thought you meant that anyway. There was only Manual when I learned, but I was quick to appreciate the advantages of AP and SP when they first appeared. A lot of newbie photographers have never known anything other than multi -mode cameras, and must wonder about the advantages of shooting in Manual. Worry about Manual when you've got a bit more experience and use it if you find a need, not because someone tells you it's the only way to shoot, because it really isn't, providing you fully understand all the options that AP and Sp give you.



Think of a modern electronic flashgun as sunlight in your pocket. Yes - it can give you faster shutter speeds and enable you to use smaller apertures, just by providing lots more light. I'm going to avoid trying to answer the questions you raised about flash, as to do the questions justice is a massive undertaking. Modern dedicated flashguns are now so integrated with the camera, that flash has never been easier than it is today, often needing little intervention from the user, so go ahead and practice, you'll see what I mean..

I hope that hepls a little mate. I do actually sympathise with the newcomer who has to embrace all this technology and muti- mode cameras in one go. Being an old fart means I've been able to assimilate it all as it came along.... gradually.
Thanks for clarifying that, I though uh oh, I've set off on the wrong foot hear, as it looks although this community is the kind forum I enjoy posting in as well as being part of (as a member)

I'm quite eager to learn things like most people. But at times I ask stupid questions and only realise afterwards that "yeah that was stupid" but I questioned myself in the first place "was it actually stupid to ask that question?" so I end up asking it? sound strange? But if I get a straight answer from people that know then it clarifys the info straight away and providing I've learnt from mistakes then all is okay with me.

I've got lots to learn in the digital field and I'm slowly understanding how some aspects of photography fit together. My Father was and still is a very creative thinker, in the 80's his skill enabled him to sell his photographs at exhibitons and make the cover of photography magazines with his works. This is until my Mother decided Dad was hardly home, so he had to give up his love for photgraphy for his lady wife! (my mum). He tried to get me interested when I was 16 but being ignorant all I wanted was a bike. It was only till last year after going out with my Fuji602 I realised Dad was right all along in that I would enjoy photography and perhaps one day I'm hoping to share the same succeses as Dad.

I'm trying to learn as much as possible whilst improving my photographic technique. Apparently I compose quite well? not to sure if thats true in all honesty but when I've had the compliment a few times, it gets me thinking.

Dad has the same view as you CT, in that there was so much to think about when digital wasn't about. I remember seeing some of Dad's motorsport equipment (Pentax LX w motor drive and Pentax 300mm F2.8) it was amazing the captures he produced and I don't normally boast as I'm not one for being bigheaded but his works amazed me.

Anyway before I bore you anymore hehe, thanks again for all you help. I'm learning all the time with photography and most of all enjoying it.

Ed
Kinobe is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2006, 21:51   #23 (permalink)
CT
Feet under the table
 
CT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: West Mids UK
Posts: 3,368
CT is an unknown quantity at this point

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Keep enjoying it mate that's far and away the most important bit!

I did have a Pentax LX. Incidentally, Pentax produced the first instant return mirror, the first TTL metering, and the first Aperture Priority camera, and the first autofocus lenses. Not bad for a maker who have never really achieved 'Pro' status for their gear.
CT is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can I Go Wrong With a 30D? aimcbt Which Camera Should I Buy? 12 13-09-2007 16:05
What's wrong with my Canon? NickTaylor Cameras, Lenses and Accessories 5 25-03-2007 10:11
What's wrong with this? Angela Photo Critique 8 14-08-2006 10:56
Where did I go wrong with this? Marcel Photo Critique 10 30-10-2005 20:36
Whats wrong with my flash? petemc Cameras, Lenses and Accessories 23 30-10-2005 18:25


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 23:02.


vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ReviewPost & PhotoPost vB3 Enhanced, Copyright 2003-2014 All Enthusiast, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.0
Copyright © 2006 - 2017 Pixalo.com

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196