Pixalo Photography Community

Go Back   Pixalo Photography Community > Photography Forums > Cameras, Lenses and Accessories

Cameras, Lenses and Accessories: Discuss What's with this?...Hi guys, As some of you might know, I am on my quest to decide whether to buy the Sigma ...
Welcome to the Pixalo Photography Community. As a Guest you are free to browse the site, but see what extras you get as a Member here.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-02-2007, 19:17   #1 (permalink)
Loves the place
 
JMitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 4,945
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
What's with this?

Hi guys,
As some of you might know, I am on my quest to decide whether to buy the Sigma 70-300mm of the Tamron of the same focal lenth.
I was checking out this guy's gallery, and there are some great shots, but many of them seem to have this effect where they have a sort of 'square' bokeh / DOF blurring. Is this bad image quality (from the upload), or the lens?
DSC_0167.jpg photo - Paolo Vairo photos at pbase.com
That is the image that most clearly explains it.


Thanks,

(Also if anyone wants to say which of those two lenses is better please tell me, but I would like a reason. I am leaning Sigma's way, but the Tamron looks nicer....which is a consideration dammit! )
JMitchell is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 19:26   #2 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 18,309
Dave is just really nice
Dave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really nice

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

I would say it's a mixture of High ISO that is giving some grain & then sharpening afterwards in Photoshop that is accectauting the grain further in the bokeh
Dave is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 19:27   #3 (permalink)
New here
 
Feb14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ft.Worth, Texas (USA)
Posts: 10
Feb14 is on a distinguished roadFeb14 is on a distinguished road

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Are you sure it isn't just noise? Perhaps from high ISO and heavy cropping. I would not think it was the lens itself.
There is no EXIF in the image to tell what the camera settings were.
Feb14 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 19:37   #4 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
stepheno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bingley
Posts: 10,668
stepheno is a jewel in the rough
stepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the rough

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Re: What's with this?

Well, it looks like good old fashioned noise. However I d/l the image ran it through Noiseware and it came out tons better but on magnification the squares are still there. I get the feeling that the guy has done quite a bit of processing including sharpening and he's got pixelation. I may be way of beam here but I don't think the lens would cause that. With regard to the two lenses in question I wouldn't like to recommend either. HTH.
stepheno is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2007, 20:36   #5 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,250
Steve is just really nice
Steve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really nice

Image edit - ASK
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Its simply a case of noise and pixelation. The file size of the image imediately confirms it for me. If you are trying to judge the differences between the two lenses than you need much higher defination and more detailed shots to compare otherwise your final decison will be made on ropy ground.

Unfortunately I can't provide better quality images from either to help
Steve is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 10:42   #6 (permalink)
Loves the place
 
JMitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 4,945
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Its simply a case of noise and pixelation. The file size of the image imediately confirms it for me. If you are trying to judge the differences between the two lenses than you need much higher defination and more detailed shots to compare otherwise your final decison will be made on ropy ground.

Unfortunately I can't provide better quality images from either to help
No I know, I was just wondering whether this was a bad effect caused by the lens being cheap, or not. I have some big images with which to make comparison, but even then you can never be sure.
JMitchell is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 10:44   #7 (permalink)
Loves the place
 
JMitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 4,945
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stepheno View Post
With regard to the two lenses in question I wouldn't like to recommend either. HTH.
I know you wouldn't, but I think that is a rather snobbish view considering some people can't afford Nikkor 70-300VRs. I'm not expecting to win a world's best lens competition with either, I just want a beginner telephoto (as I am a beginner), that produces decent enough images for the level I am at.
JMitchell is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 10:51   #8 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 18,309
Dave is just really nice
Dave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really nice

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

For the money the Sigma is a very competent lens & like you say a great introduction to telephoto lenses. The image does get a bit soft towards the 300mm end of the zoom, but acceptable for the money. If you look at the "Street Photography" thread you'll see acouple of links to shots I took with the said lens (300mm shots)

If you want an even cheaper option then look at the Nikon 70-200mm lens ...can be had for under £80 from Hong Kong....... not the greatest quailty build , but it does the job
Dave is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 10:53   #9 (permalink)
Loves the place
 
JMitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 4,945
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
For the money the Sigma is a very competent lens & like you say a great introduction to telephoto lenses. The image does get a bit soft towards the 300mm end of the zoom, but acceptable for the money.

If you want an even cheaper option then look at the Nikon 70-200mm lens ...can be had for under £80 from Hong Kong....... not the greatest quailty build , but it does the job
Thank you, yes I was thinking Sigma, but I am very annoyed that the Tamron's aesthetics are so much nicer, oh well.
With regards to the Nikon....I think I can afford to spend a little more (up to about £200), so perhaps I'll leave those
JMitchell is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 10:58   #10 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 18,309
Dave is just really nice
Dave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really niceDave is just really nice

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

I think you are doing the right thing by sticking with a budget, as sometime you may find you don't use a certain focal range lens that often ...for example I rarely use my 70-200mm lens , vs the 17-55 or 10-20mm . Once you suss out which focal range lens is most importnat, you can then spend your money more wisely ....wish i took my own advice sometimes
Dave is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 11:01   #11 (permalink)
Loves the place
 
JMitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 4,945
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
I think you are doing the right thing by sticking with a budget, as sometime you may find you don't use a certain focal range lens that often ...for example I rarely use my 70-200mm lens , vs the 17-55 or 10-20mm . Once you suss out which focal range lens is most importnat, you can then spend your money more wisely ....wish i took my own advice sometimes
True. I am quite worried that my preffered focal length is going to be quite large, and therefore cost me quite a bit more...but I'll cross that bridge in about 20 years I imagine
JMitchell is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 12:51   #12 (permalink)
Forum Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: I conduct workshops in Andalucia, Spain
Posts: 782
Les Meehan is a jewel in the rough
Les Meehan is a jewel in the roughLes Meehan is a jewel in the roughLes Meehan is a jewel in the roughLes Meehan is a jewel in the roughLes Meehan is a jewel in the roughLes Meehan is a jewel in the roughLes Meehan is a jewel in the rough

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

I think Dave has touched on a very important point re buying lenses. Before you commit to the next lens REALLY consider the type of images you like best. If necessary trawl a few galleries and do a personal survey of the images you REALLY like and then check out which focal length was used. This will give you a clue as to where your personal vision is in relation to focal length (of course I am aware that your vision will probably change over time). With this knowledge you will be better placed to decide.

If you don't see yourself using the really long focal lengths that often, why not consider a 'prime' lens of around 200mm? That way you will get superior quality, which seems to be important to you from your posts, and not waste money on unused focal lengths and poor quality. Of course, zooms are convenient but often that boils down to laziness (not implying you are by any means, OK).
On the aesthetics aspect of the lens you could always paint it yellow or green just for fun.
Les Meehan is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 12:57   #13 (permalink)
Loves the place
 
JMitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 4,945
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Meehan View Post
I think Dave has touched on a very important point re buying lenses. Before you commit to the next lens REALLY consider the type of images you like best. If necessary trawl a few galleries and do a personal survey of the images you REALLY like and then check out which focal length was used. This will give you a clue as to where your personal vision is in relation to focal length (of course I am aware that your vision will probably change over time). With this knowledge you will be better placed to decide.

If you don't see yourself using the really long focal lengths that often, why not consider a 'prime' lens of around 200mm? That way you will get superior quality, which seems to be important to you from your posts, and not waste money on unused focal lengths and poor quality. Of course, zooms are convenient but often that boils down to laziness (not implying you are by any means, OK).
On the aesthetics aspect of the lens you could always paint it yellow or green just for fun.
Yes I think you are right. I mean, I am primarily a landscape / nature photographer, more nature than landscape, but you get the idea, but often find for macros and such that I am not close enough, which is why I wanted the 300mm Macro, but also like to stretch out a bit so capture "rolling hills" etc, which is why I thought it best to go for a 70-300. I know zooms are often inferior in quality to primes, but I don't really have the budget at the moment to by a 17mm wide, and say a 200 / 300 / 400mm tele prime as well...those are my reasons for going in this direction.
And you never know, I might just paint it green , it could be camouflage...or not
And you're right, I'm bloody lazy, I can't be bothered to change lenses all the time
JMitchell is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 13:38   #14 (permalink)
Loves the place
 
Rob Barron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Poole, Dorset
Posts: 7,227
Rob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to all
Rob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to allRob Barron is a name known to all

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

What this photo shows is simple: Don't base your decision to buy a lens based only on images seen on a computer. You need to judge it based on what it can produce in print without being heavily compressed for size.

The only genuine way to judge pictures on the internet is to see two photos taken as close together as possible and given identical treatment in terms of any adjustments (best if none are performed) and compression factor. That gives a reasonable comparison though still not perfect.

In this picture of a flamingo, the colour saturation has been increased which always increases the effect of noise in dark background areas. But be it noise, compression artefacts or over sharpening, it is NOT down to the lens but post processing so does not give you anything to base a purchase on in my humble opinion.

Cheers,
Rob
__________________
Rob Barron

I love being a photographer: it's the only job where you can legally shoot people and cut their heads off
Rob Barron is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2007, 15:56   #15 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,250
Steve is just really nice
Steve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really niceSteve is just really nice

Image edit - ASK
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMitchell View Post
I know you wouldn't, but I think that is a rather snobbish view considering some people can't afford Nikkor 70-300VRs. I'm not expecting to win a world's best lens competition with either, I just want a beginner telephoto (as I am a beginner), that produces decent enough images for the level I am at.
I hate to jump in here but I believe that you may have the meaning of stepheno's reply slightly wrong. Admittedly it is not very clear but knowing stepheno like I do, I am fairly confident that what he meant was "that he has no experience with either and therefore is not in a position to recommend one or the other" not that he was taking a snobbish attitude to only buying expensive lenses.

No harm done either way but I felt obliged to add that
Steve is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2007, 12:08   #16 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
stepheno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bingley
Posts: 10,668
stepheno is a jewel in the rough
stepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the rough

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Re: What's with this?

I've only just picked up on J's reply - Steve has corrected me - it was my unfortunate phraseology, just that I have not experience of either lens
stepheno is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2007, 12:11   #17 (permalink)
Loves the place
 
JMitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 4,945
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stepheno View Post
I've only just picked up on J's reply - Steve has corrected me - it was my unfortunate phraseology, just that I have not experience of either lens
Meh, doesn't matter, should be getting the Sigma today anyway
JMitchell is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2007, 12:22   #18 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Markulous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Peak District
Posts: 19,640
Markulous is a jewel in the rough
Markulous is a jewel in the roughMarkulous is a jewel in the roughMarkulous is a jewel in the roughMarkulous is a jewel in the roughMarkulous is a jewel in the roughMarkulous is a jewel in the rough

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMitchell View Post
Meh, doesn't matter, should be getting the Sigma today anyway
Sigma?

Markulous is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2007, 12:23   #19 (permalink)
Loves the place
 
JMitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 4,945
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markulous View Post
Sigma?

Am I surprised? ......Nope.

EDIT: It better be good, or on your head be it

Last edited by JMitchell; 20-02-2007 at 12:24. Reason: Extra threats
JMitchell is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2007, 12:29   #20 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
Markulous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Peak District
Posts: 19,640
Markulous is a jewel in the rough
Markulous is a jewel in the roughMarkulous is a jewel in the roughMarkulous is a jewel in the roughMarkulous is a jewel in the roughMarkulous is a jewel in the roughMarkulous is a jewel in the rough

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMitchell View Post
Am I surprised? ......Nope.
Don't know what you can mean!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMitchell View Post
EDIT: It better be good, or on your head be it
I can take it! Just remember the name: Dave!
Markulous is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2007, 14:00   #21 (permalink)
Loves the place
 
JMitchell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Berlin
Posts: 4,945
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light
JMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of lightJMitchell is a glorious beacon of light

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: What's with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markulous View Post


I can take it! Just remember the name: Dave!
Nice try......MARK
JMitchell is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:19.


vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ReviewPost & PhotoPost vB3 Enhanced, Copyright 2003-2014 All Enthusiast, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.0
Copyright © 2006 - 2017 Pixalo.com

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196