[ralph]

Boofers it's not a knock on the american people at all i would be just as p****d off if it was the british government. It just seems that the powers that be want to make a real example of this guy for highlighting serious problems. Trouble is a tough prison sentence wont deter the terrorists attacking america or britain. The UFO documents in question relate to a prototype anti-gravity engine using element 115 that apparently has super density and in enough quantities can generate it's own gravity field enough to bend space/time. (Apparently within the physics world this is possible but officially no-one has been able to create enough element 115 to test the theory?!!!) OOh my brain hurts, space/time theory at this time of night!!! other documents allegedly looked at were something to do with a computer system linked to all the missile silo's in america that work out the best response/casualty rate(bit like wargames) trouble is it was able to fire missiles without human intervention. Seems to me they want this guy out of the way, maybe he did see something he shouldnt?!!! I feel an x-files moment coming on... (Theme tune in my head)

[Charlotte]

Hmmm very interesting reading here + some excellent arguments for both sides. Personally I'm on the fence here. Yes, he (admittedly) committed a crime. Yes, he chose the wrong people to peep on. Ya just don't mess with the American national security. Full stop. Stoopid thing to do. Dumb + dumber. Has this guy had a psychological assessment?? (he sure needs one!)

HOWEVER, are you seriously telling me that they didn't know he was in their space for over a year?? Do me a favour! Methinks they did indeed know - and fairly early on - that they had company, + that they were monitoring what he was doing, saw that he was just looking + let him carry on just so that they could make an example of him at a time of their choosing.

I'm confused by a few other questions:
(1) He stopped hacking in March but was only arrested in November Why did he stop? I'm quite sure it wasn't because he got bored of it ... but there are 7 clear months between the time he stopped hacking + the time he was arrested?
(2) This all happened 5 years ago!! Has he been in jail these past 5 years? But how can that be, if he hasn't had a trial yet? If no-one was ready for a trial, what was the purpose of arresting him?
(3) What's the difference to the US govt whether he does the time here or there?

As this is the first I've heard of this, I don't have any 'information' except what's in this thread, so my questions are genuine, I'm not being funny, + am not on anyone's side (yet). They have both been very silly, as far as I'm concerned. More than that, I reserve my 'judgment' until I know more

[Steve]

Originally Posted by ralph

But if you were that hacker would'nt you hope for a fair trial? Both britain and america hold justice as their core values but when one of their own district attorneys wants to "fry" someone justice becomes questionable. I think he should be punished!!! but if he was speeding then he should get 3 points and a £60 fine not life imprisonment!!!

But he hasn't been tied yet and so we don't actually know the outcome. Also lets just assume he committed the crimes against the Brittish government and one of our officials allegedly said that he would 'fry', would that then mean that we don't try him for his crimes or would we simply just keep that official away from the proceedings? Again I honestly feel people are bringing in and mixing up too many things here, he committed a crime against the USA and got found out, they want to try him for his actions and I do believe that is correct. Everything else should be dealt with to ensure he gets a fair trial but the sentence of up to 45years while I personally think is excessive and not in line with other sentences of far worse crimes, is what is set by the USA and thats were he is alleged to have committed the crimes.

I personally feel that chopping someone's hands of for thieving is a little too severe but in some countries that is the punishment for that crime...do you see where I am going with this?

[orangepeel]

Having been nosing about us military systems in my yoof let me assure you it's childishly easy. How about anonymous FTP access? Sound incredible?
Being illegal didn't even cross my mind. Public FTP servers with wide open access are an implicit invitation. It doesn't take hacking to get in. It takes an FTP client, an IP address and port. Yet if I did that today instead of 15 years ago I can look at 45 years? BS. Total BS.

Course back then it wasn't illegal to do many things. e.g. try port scanning a US military system and watch what happens. I've head stories of people being cut off from their ISP just for port scanning!



The irony is they're probably going to crucify some silly dude looking for UFO stuff when in fact they should be protecting themselves from the supposed real threats they feed us on a daily basis. China, Iran, Osama, North Korea etc. I can't imagine the thought of 45 years in pokey would stop any of them from attacking US military systems... So you've got to wonder why bother with the extreme sentences? Has the USA really become that paranoid?

I'm not saying if guilty let the dude go. I'm saying have a punishment that's commesurate with the crime. The fact he did no damage should count for something. If you believe the prosecution he was in the most ultra sensitive uber dangerous parts of their systems. So had he dropped a cyber bomb in there and wrecked the whole lot, what more than 45 years is a deterrent? Remember this dude is 40 so a 45 year sentence is effectivly life. What difference would any sentence make on top of that if he had decided to wreck the place?
5 years and a lifetime ban from computers. That's a punishment. Had he destroyed data or brought down systems THEN we are looking at 45 years being more in line.

[Boofers]

Thanks Crew Guy's and Gal's, for that report.

We here in USA are at least most of us pretty num from all the bad talking government officals who never stop to say anything nice about each other. I wish life was fair and we had more time to spend without the pain we cause each other.

[_MB_]

Originally Posted by fionaB

Ok. so what constitutes a victimless crime then??.... im not trying to be smart etc, i genuinely want to know, cos the way i see it is that everything has a consequence...... thus every crime has a victim, perhaps not in the first hand or one that is obvious straight away...............
but a victim is there nevertheless.
Fi

A victimless crime would be any act that is against the law but causes no harm to anybody. If there was no such thing as a victimless crime, laws would never be repealed.

[_MB_]

Originally Posted by Soupdragon

Would you like to offer an example?

I'd have liked to think people could have a go themselves but sure. Homosexuality in England before 1967.

[skipper954]

OK....here is my view from the US. And it is strictly personal. I do not speak for my government

In fact, I looked at the US Federal Grand Jury indictment. In our grand jury system, the defendent is not represented. The prosecution presents its case and the jury determines if there is probable cause.

He is accused of illegally accessing about 60 government computers, altering information and doing other illegal acts, and according to one newspaper report, causing over $700,000 in damage.

So in my view, the UK courts are correct. He should be extradited and tried in the US according to US laws. I will not take a stand on whether he should serve his sentence in the UK, although he probably should not...oh oh...I just took a stand.

Whatever was reported about his "frying" etc was inappropriate lawyer talk, and in fact all that they say is to enhance their arguments and not necessarily on point of law or truthful.

Quite honestly, I found precious little reference to this in the US press. It seems to be unimportant to those in the media who decide what is newsworthy. But that is another issue.

Obviously his supporters are making quite a fuss online, but in this case, all that is said is unimportant.

The facts of law remain, and if the US finds him guilty and wants to impose severe penalties according to laws enacted after 9/11, that is it's perogative.

skip

[Boofers]

Good one skip,
looking up laws and stuff is low on my list. Thanks, I believe you hit it on the nail head
about the grand jury.

[fionaB]

I am reading a lot hear that seems to be saying."ok he broke the law, but its ok cos he didint take/ touch/ hurt anyone".......... right so then its fine if I borrowed your car and took it for a spin but dont worry i will bring it back in the same condition i borrowed. hey i will even pay for the fuel............ Come off it!

he may not have commited the most heinous crime in history but he STILL commited a crime...... simce when have we been able to pick and choose what crimes we are allowed to get away with and what we are not? just cos it doesnt suit.

Just because America have not extradited people for other crimes does NOT mean we have to do the same back or it becomes play ground nonsense... im gonna be your friend IF..............
The law is the law........ if not what is the POINT of having laws in the first place, and as to its ok he just went in and had a look round... how would u like someone to get into your computer and have a look round all your private business? ....nope didint think so......

IF he gets sent over and i sincerely hope he does. He should have to take the punishment metted out to him, and yes the punishment SHOULD fit the crime, but lets be clear here. he DID commit a crime and there fore SHOULD be punished if found guilty......... or what is the point in having any laws.?

Fi

[skipper954]

Originally Posted by Boofers

Good one skip,
looking up laws and stuff is low on my list. Thanks, I believe you hit it on the nail head
about the grand jury.

A guick and dirty google found this. It actually does make interesting scanning.

news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/cyberlaw/usmck1102vaind.pdf

I expect everyone to write a one page report on this and submit it before the end of the weekend.

skip