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General photography questions and answers: Discuss AVFORUMS censor links to this site...Recieved the following PM on AVFORUMS today :- http://www.thephotographyforums.com/gallery/album63 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mate were you linking to other photography forums in your ...
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Old 06-11-2005, 20:44   #1 (permalink)
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AVFORUMS censor links to this site

Recieved the following PM on AVFORUMS today :-

http://www.thephotographyforums.com/gallery/album63

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mate were you linking to other photography forums in your signature just to have a dig at us for the Seany thing?
Kind of seems like it.
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From this I started this thread......shame the forum is becoming so paranoid these days !!


Censorship of other ForumSites from AVFORUMS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This post will test the true censorship of this site.....I hope Stuart is man enough to openly explain to others why he is censoring links to other forums sites !!

I recently recieved a note from Stuart asking why I was listing links to other forums in my signature, which included my userids. I have now found they have been removed by Stuart with no explanation.

Amazingly enough people use more than one forum to share information. I for one frequent many more specialised Photography forums & so do others who use the Photography section here. I basically listed my USERID for these other sites so that we can find colleagues across sites when discussing items.

Is the owner of this site so paranoid of other sites that he feels he has to censor the links. I know this was instructed to Mods at one of their last meetings !!

It's a shame this site has become almost to big to forget the roots of the Web for sharing information, including other more specialist forums.

Debate
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Old 06-11-2005, 21:00   #2 (permalink)
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I asked for it to be made it public that Seany only left the AFV after being scolded like a naughty schoolboy (not a respected forum mod) for posting relevant and helpful link to information that just happened to be on another site. Sean deserved a ban for his reaction but that was not the point.

Edited to depersonalise and add info

I got a brief reply that posting links to competitors is against the rules. Don't see many what camera for £50 threads on POTN to draw AVF punters but....

Obviously not noticed mattym's sig on AVF yet
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Old 06-11-2005, 21:01   #3 (permalink)
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oh well. On the overclockers forum it's a fundamentalist mormon based bulletin board. You can't even discuss the weather for fear of getting a 'holiday'

bit offish though. People are weird!
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Old 06-11-2005, 21:04   #4 (permalink)
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Farcical really as they have a thread showing useful links, that list exactly the same links I had. Censorship went futher than that though , with instructions to delete any comments that may be competition to adverts on site......just another example of greed ruining a respectable site to date. I mostly feel for the Mods who work for free.

Ah well, plenty more fish in the sea as they say....& to date this is an excellent site
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Old 06-11-2005, 21:07   #5 (permalink)
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and hopefully it'll stay that way.

Unless our mods and admin go all 'Caesar' on us
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Old 06-11-2005, 21:10   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gandhi
bit offish though. People are weird!
Working fr an IT company in Outsourcing I have seen how much companies pay for data / customers of other customers. Based on member numbers & hwo high the hit rate is on Google searches, the site in question is worth a considerable amount of money...trust me. Censorship is the 1st step to retain its value......I assure you the site will be sold with the next x years. Once again I feel sorry for the Mods who work for free & make the site more valuable by the day. I was asked if I wanted to be a Mod on the site & stated NO based on latter point.

Not sure who owns this site, but take note :lol:
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Old 06-11-2005, 21:54   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJW
Not sure who owns this site, but take note :lol:
I own this site but set it up with the aid of three other members initially. Since the site grew a little we have since added two other moderators to our fold. We do not intend to censor anything that is not illegal or a blatant unnecessary plug to a similar site.

Like you have already said the internet is a wide resource and we fully understand that our members are aware of and visit many other sites, that however does not mean that we will actively support them any more than they will us. If one of our members links to another useful site specifically for information or in the interests of helping out we will gladly let it stay (ala Bachs recent favourites list), if it’s done just to promote that other side it will be removed. We think that is fair and reasonable.

We do not accept adverts here, so have no “customers” to protect. We also make absolutely no money; all costs are currently borne by myself. I am no hero though the costs currently associated with this site are tiny and only when they escalate to beyond reasonable will I then look at ways to offset that. In the future, should we accept advertising it will also be on the understanding that they are paying for the advert only and will gain no favouritism, their product/s will still be up for discussion and opinions both good and bad will not be censored.

It was also decided that if the site should make any money in the future, once my costs have been covered then the remainder would be split evenly amongst the “Staff” as a “thank you” for all the hard work they currently put in for free. This is not a blind promise and they know that, however they also realise that it is very unlikely for along time…basically they expect nothing and give a great deal for free.

After that, in the far distant future, if there is any money in the kitty, then what is left will be put towards prizes etc for the competitions and future stuff, it will be our way of giving back a little as a thanks to you.


One last thing (this is aimed at everyone), as you know we are liberal here and encourage opinions and discussion but please be sensible and don’t say anything libellous against any other forums of web sites. I have a duty to remove anything along those lines and I would hate to be put in that position. Keep it factual and not personal and everyone will be fine.
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Old 06-11-2005, 22:09   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
One last thing (this is aimed at everyone), as you know we are liberal here and encourage opinions and discussion but please be sensible and don’t say anything libellous against any other forums of web sites. I have a duty to remove anything along those lines and I would hate to be put in that position. Keep it factual and not personal and everyone will be fine.
Noted
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Old 06-11-2005, 22:19   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
I own this site but set it up with the aid of three other members initially. Since the site grew a little we have since added two other moderators to our fold. We do not intend to censor anything that is not illegal or a blatant unnecessary plug to a similar site.

Like you have already said the internet is a wide resource and we fully understand that our members are aware of and visit many other sites, that however does not mean that we will actively support them any more than they will us. If one of our members links to another useful site specifically for information or in the interests of helping out we will gladly let it stay (ala Bachs recent favourites list), if it’s done just to promote that other side it will be removed. We think that is fair and reasonable.

We do not accept adverts here, so have no “customers” to protect. We also make absolutely no money; all costs are currently borne by myself. I am no hero though the costs currently associated with this site are tiny and only when they escalate to beyond reasonable will I then look at ways to offset that. In the future, should we accept advertising it will also be on the understanding that they are paying for the advert only and will gain no favouritism, their product/s will still be up for discussion and opinions both good and bad will not be censored.

It was also decided that if the site should make any money in the future, once my costs have been covered then the remainder would be split evenly amongst the “Staff” as a “thank you” for all the hard work they currently put in for free. This is not a blind promise and they know that, however they also realise that it is very unlikely for along time…basically they expect nothing and give a great deal for free.

After that, in the far distant future, if there is any money in the kitty, then what is left will be put towards prizes etc for the competitions and future stuff, it will be our way of giving back a little as a thanks to you.


One last thing (this is aimed at everyone), as you know we are liberal here and encourage opinions and discussion but please be sensible and don’t say anything libellous against any other forums of web sites. I have a duty to remove anything along those lines and I would hate to be put in that position. Keep it factual and not personal and everyone will be fine.

It's nice to know there are still some people out there who have the right ideas about how the world of the internet should be.

I have a warm glow now!
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Old 07-11-2005, 07:00   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gandhi
It's nice to know there are still some people out there who have the right ideas about how the world of the internet should be.

I have a warm glow now!
All decisions taken here are done as a group by all the staff collectively, thats how it was set up from the very beginning specifically to stop anyone going all "Caesar" as you term it. If I want something to happen and the remainding staff think it is a bad idea then I get overruled and it doesn't happen, this was implimented to prevent a situation arising that I once was a victim of.

We as a group keep ourselves saine and levelheaded, if you feel differently at some point please raise the point either on the forums or by PM to any of the staff where it will be discussed with you and resolved mutually.
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Old 07-11-2005, 11:23   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
All decisions taken here are done as a group by all the staff collectively, thats how it was set up from the very beginning specifically to stop anyone going all "Caesar" as you term it. If I want something to happen and the remainding staff think it is a bad idea then I get overruled and it doesn't happen, this was implimented to prevent a situation arising that I once was a victim of.

We as a group keep ourselves saine and levelheaded, if you feel differently at some point please raise the point either on the forums or by PM to any of the staff where it will be discussed with you and resolved mutually.
Top Guys !!!!!

Anyway I've been banned from the other place now, so my suspicions of censorship have been proven.....ho hum :icon_cool . Stupid thing is they have proven my point for me by taking that action ....anyway enough of that :yawn: , the weather is great at the mo so I'm off to shoot some photo's this savo.
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Old 07-11-2005, 13:29   #12 (permalink)
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I think you have forgotten that the other site is a commercial venture, part of an online shop and as such they have need to protect their business' profits. Yes it can seem heavy handed sometimes and certainly the sites owner doesn't always stick to his own rules but then he does own it and can do what he likes. I'm sure I would not be happy with folk posting links to competitors (or links to sites containg links to competitors) if it were my business.
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Old 07-11-2005, 15:04   #13 (permalink)
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Steep, DJW isnt talking about that one!
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Old 07-11-2005, 16:26   #14 (permalink)
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oh, erm, ignore me then
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Old 07-11-2005, 18:37   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Steep
oh, erm, ignore me then
Don't worry, the site in question is run in the same manner as if everyone else is a competitor :lol:
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Old 07-11-2005, 18:43   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJW
Anyway I've been banned from the other place now, so my suspicions of censorship have been proven.....ho hum :icon_cool .

Dave I have just seen that you are banned over there...

Recently I had some issues with certain members flaming me over matters that really were none of their business, The situation became a flame war with the mods backing up the idiots who started it.. :yawn:

I now refuse to visit or post over there for that reason.

I am pleased I am not the only one who has been victimised and will find better company on this site..
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Old 07-11-2005, 19:36   #17 (permalink)
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Well i'll talk about this just the once

I spent 4 years with that forum, watched it get more and more popular. Some really great lads on there, be they mods or members. I left on a matter of principal, if i was right to do to is subjective. I just did what i thought was right, though i might not have gone about it the best way. I was a moderator, i like to think i did an ok job of it.

I was not victimised in anyway, there was just something i could no longer stomach, and a couple of events led to certain things that brought me to my decision to leave.

A fair few people still think i jumped the gun, i don’t regret it personally

Commercial or not, such a site in my view has to allow unbiased opinion and advice to keep its credibility in tact, which keeps people coming back, which makes it worth while placing adds in the first place.


It is on the hole a good site, it’s a damn big one. The greatest asset of that forum (and it should be with any forum) is its members.

Last edited by Sean_Mcr; 07-11-2005 at 20:35.
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Old 07-11-2005, 20:20   #18 (permalink)
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Sean, your last 2 paragraphs are spot on.......
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Old 07-11-2005, 21:35   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sean_Mcr
The greatest asset of that forum (and it should be with any forum) is its members.

100% true...
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Old 08-11-2005, 08:09   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean_Mcr
The greatest asset of that forum (and it should be with any forum) is its members.
Agreed.

We can provide a place to meet and occationally something interesting to read but if we have nobody visit to look at it, then what is the point?

Some bigger sites seem to forget were they have come from and how they got started.
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Old 09-11-2005, 17:26   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by busterboy
Recently I had some issues with certain members flaming me over matters that really were none of their business, The situation became a flame war with the mods backing up the idiots who started it.. :yawn:
That wasn't in the Photography section was it? :icon_eek:
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Old 09-11-2005, 17:34   #22 (permalink)
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That wasn't in the Photography section was it? :icon_eek:

It sure was as you already know... :eyesup:
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Old 09-11-2005, 17:36   #23 (permalink)
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My memory must be going
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Old 09-11-2005, 17:42   #24 (permalink)
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Old 09-11-2005, 23:26   #25 (permalink)
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Hello folks.
I agree with pretty much everything that everyone here has said with one or two exceptions and unless Steve objects, I'd like to put my point of view?
First of all I replied to DJW's initial post here explaining what the situation was. Rather than repeat myself here, I hope those of you who are interested will read that post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJW
Farcical really as they have a thread showing useful links, that list exactly the same links I had. Censorship went futher than that though , with instructions to delete any comments that may be competition to adverts on site......just another example of greed ruining a respectable site to date. I mostly feel for the Mods who work for free.
The above is complete rubbish, I'm afraid. DJW has got this information second hand from Sean who IMO got the wrong end of the stick and IMO over reacted. We are trying very hard to build our DVD review forums and we can't do this without the cooperation of DVD sponsors. They supply the DVDs in exchange for a sponsor logo and link in the review. We have a policy to remove posts IN THE REVIEWS by people linking to DVD retailers in competition with the sponsors as this undermines the sponsors' advert. This is the ONLY instance where we have a poliy to protect our sponsors. DVD review threads are unique since they are not really for discussion. (And will all be removed from the AV Forums in Q1 2006 anyway). People are ENCOURAGED to post bargains by all retailers in the special offers forums.
I hope this clarifies our policy here.

Steve, admin of this site has an easier job than me because you don't have adverts on this site. However, unless Steve is loaded, if this site grows in popularity, there will come a point when he simply can't continue to run it AND keep his day job. And there will be a point at which he can't afford to pay for the server out of his own pocket.
I am VERY, VERY lucky to own the AV Forums, and I am VERY concious that they would not be where they are without the members. However, the server & bandwidth costs more than £1,000 per month. And with wife (nearly), a mortgage and two kids, I can't work for free. And I spend a fair amount on Google advertising to promote the site.
So I have to have advertising on the AV Forums. However I do not allow the forums to be influenced by the advertisers (except in the one unique and isolated instance described above). Infact I am extra vigilant that advertisers do not break the 'business soliciting' rule. As Steve knows, your integrity is essential if you want to run a good forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steep
I think you have forgotten that the other site is a commercial venture, part of an online shop and as such they have need to protect their business' profits.
As Eosd pointed out, this is not correct. We are not part of an online shop. There is a branded shopping.com shop from which we earn a very small affiliate percentage, but we are not a retailer. I'm a home cinema enthusiast just like Steve is a digital photography enthusiast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by busterboy
Recently I had some issues with certain members flaming me over matters that really were none of their business, The situation became a flame war with the mods backing up the idiots who started it.. :yawn:
I'm sorry to hear about that. I can assure you there is no victimisation on the AV Forums, and if anyone feels they are unfairly treated, I hope they will contact me so I can resolve the situaton.

With regard to my being a 'Caesar', I see Steve Green is a member here. As a moderator of the AV Forums, I hope he will attest that I usually ask the opinions of moderators before I make a change to forum policy. A variety of ideas has helped me take the forums in the right direction, and I have often been persuaded to take a different direction by the convincing arguments of the mods and indeed of the members. But I feel it's important to have one person at the 'helm'. Sure, everyone makes mistakes, and I have made my fair share. But a good administrator will learn from his mistakes and use the experience to improve his forums. One mistake I have made is in not being clearer in our policy regarding *promotion* of rival sites. I believe there was miscommunication between myself and Sean and I regret that he felt he had to leave. It's also a shame that DJW had to go and get himself banned. But his actions left me will little choice. I feel it's a pity, that both Sean and DJW will not be part of the AV Forums any more as they were both valuable members and decent blokes.

Lastly with regard to competition, I have no problem with people discussing other useful websites. No forum would be worth a damn if people couldn't refer each other to useful resources on other sites. It's *promotion* of *rival* sites which we don't allow. Question for Steve - how would you feel if someone came on here and actively encouraged people to join their rival digital photography forum? Would you allow that? Or would you delete their posts? Hopefully considering this issue will help people appreciate why we have a policy not to allow *promotion* of competing websites.

I don't know if I will convince any of you that I am not a 'Ceasar', but I've responsed honestly to these issues and you'll all make your own minds up.

Last edited by Stuart Wright; 09-11-2005 at 23:40.
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Old 10-11-2005, 00:15   #26 (permalink)
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Methinks this is where real Administrator and Moderator skills come in.
I'll be watching this one with interest.
Nuff said
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Old 10-11-2005, 00:55   #27 (permalink)
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I was wondering when I'd get a chance to use that smiley.

Not directed at anyone in particular. I was just wondering if I should get my stick out and give the issue a bit of a poke, See if I can make everyone really angry!

Sorry, mischeivous moment and I hope you all know I' d never do anything like that. Not with no whisky in the house anyway

Peace dudes
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Old 10-11-2005, 00:55   #28 (permalink)
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Well to be honest I think we've heard far too much about this allready here.

No dissrespect to DJW (and others) who is/are obviously very annoyed at the situation, but this is an AVForums problem and as such should remain there.

Steve was kind enough to let many of us move over here and enjoy a forum completely dedicated to photography... I don't see why he should have to deal with the baggage brought by some of us from other places.

Not really fair IMO
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Old 10-11-2005, 01:19   #29 (permalink)
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What Sonsey said!

I really think people need to draw a line under the past and let's just get on with enjoying the love of taking pictures which we all have in common.
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Old 10-11-2005, 01:29   #30 (permalink)
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I think Sonsey has the most valid point. This really is an AVForums issue, and as such, should remain there.

While here at the Photohraphy Forums we are liberal in what we allow to be discussed, only really stepping in where the law requires us to do so, we also have a duty to the forum dynamic, to keep things flowing well, happy, and friendly. This sometimes includes moderation of topics or posts that don't break any specific rules.
I believe that this is one such case.

While we welcome everybody with open arms and we prefer to adopt a policy of that when you join this site, you do so with a clean slate. We care not, how members have acted on other forums, and what disagreements they have had elsewhere. A members actions on the Photography Forums are what counts, on the Photography Forums.

As Sonsey has said, this really is an AVForums problem.
We have had comments from one side of the argument, and now we have Stuart posting his defense. This I feel is a perfect point to ask everyone to put the matter to bed, at least on these forums.
I say we should just sit back and all enjoy what the Photography Forums are for, to share our passion and enjoyment for photography. Let's all leave our pre-forum baggage with the coats and shoes near the door.
I think it's the best way to do things. Like I say, we treat all new members as if they have no baggage, so I think it's only fair that they too, leave that baggage behind.

I'm not going to close this thread, as I believe that everyone on here is mature, sensible and courteous enough to agree when I/we request that this is a fair and just end to the matter as far as these forums are concerned?

Kind Regards, and I do hope you understand our position. It's not fair on the other TPF members for arguments and disagreements to spill out onto their forums, especially as in all honesty, it has nothing to do with us, or them.

Marcel
 
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