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Old 26-07-2008, 09:46   #1 (permalink)
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The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

Some of you may have seen my sharing thread about some Parkour shots last week.

The guys have another show today (which I'm going to go to) and it made an appearance on the end of Friday's BBC South East's Weather forecast 3/4's in to this video clip.

Now that was anice bit of publicity for them but neither the event organiser who copied the pic, OR the BBC asked to use my photo .

I've spoken to a 'tog friend who's more clued up on this sort of thing, and done some research and I think an invoice for £500 to the Beeb sounds in order.

I don't think that's overly unreasonable and once the Beeb have coughed up, I'll donate a good chunk of it to the boys so that they can fund future activities.
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Old 26-07-2008, 10:01   #2 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

How did they get hold of your shots Mike?
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Old 26-07-2008, 10:04   #3 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

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Originally Posted by brian wright22 View Post
How did they get hold of your shots Mike?
Apparently the organiser of today's event took a copy of the shot off another forum and then sent it to the Beeb. I'm half minded to invoice the organiser as well, and probably will, if I encounter a jobsworth
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Old 26-07-2008, 10:07   #4 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

I will love to hear how this one turns out
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Old 26-07-2008, 10:07   #5 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

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Originally Posted by M1ke A View Post
Apparently the organiser of today's event took a copy of the shot off another forum and then sent it to the Beeb. I'm half minded to invoice the organiser as well, and probably will, if I encounter a jobsworth
Its worth making a polite request.
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Old 26-07-2008, 10:47   #6 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

Let us know how you get on with this - it was a great shot!
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Old 26-07-2008, 10:58   #7 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

its worth an invoice but i think the beeb will say as it got the photograph from the event organiser its up to him to pay, have known a few folk who have had pics on the BBC weather and none of htem have been paid for it. although a credit would have been in order i think.

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Old 26-07-2008, 11:01   #8 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

Go for the throat - that sort of thing really annoys me. Don't let them fob you off.
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Old 26-07-2008, 11:25   #9 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

Although the BBC should have checked that whoever sent the picture in had the right to do so, I think the blame should go more to the organiser sending your images out without permission.

I'd give him a large flea in the ear and would want to know where else he has sent it to promote his activities.
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Old 26-07-2008, 13:20   #10 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

you're kidding right? that's a bit of a statement? you want £500 for the photo? ahahah, help me while i regain my balance...
you posted the photo on a public forum??? A credit is all this photo is worth.
you should have a word with the event organiser because they sound like a bunch of cocks for not crediting, but then again, we don't know what the full story is.
BBC aren't even making money off of the photo and they have nothing to do with the event, why should they pay you a penny?
The 2 people accountable for this screw up are you for posting in the first place to a public forum and the organiser for copying said photo from the forum and sending it to the BBC...
That's it.
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Old 26-07-2008, 13:57   #11 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

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Originally Posted by Dabhand16 View Post
I think the blame should go more to the organiser sending your images out without permission.
Absolutely agree.
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Old 26-07-2008, 14:08   #12 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

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you're kidding right? that's a bit of a statement? you want £500 for the photo? ahahah, help me while i regain my balance...
you posted the photo on a public forum??? A credit is all this photo is worth.
you should have a word with the event organiser because they sound like a bunch of cocks for not crediting, but then again, we don't know what the full story is.
BBC aren't even making money off of the photo and they have nothing to do with the event, why should they pay you a penny?
The 2 people accountable for this screw up are you for posting in the first place to a public forum and the organiser for copying said photo from the forum and sending it to the BBC...
That's it.
You may not value your images at £500 but it's the right of anyone to set whatever fee they please.

If I offer you the 50 Cent album and tell you it's legitimate and you can have it for free does that mean you're not breaking copyright law? I think you might find we'd both be in breach.

You don't loose the right to compensation for use of your images just because you post them publicly.

It also doesn't matter if someone who uses your material without permission does so for money or for free it's theft in either case.

You can bet your ass if you used any BBC content commercially without permission (the BBC ARE a commercial organisation) then rest assured they'd come down on you like a ton of bricks.

The media *******s need to practice what they damn well preach before they lecture us lot on copyright theft!
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Old 26-07-2008, 17:35   #13 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

I actually wrote a long ass speech back to this, but realised i had just wasted 20 minutes on something that's never going to get through to anyone.

So, in summary, I hope this has taught you and everyone else a valuable lesson.
If you value your work, and regard it to be worth £whatever, then try, to the best of your abilities, not to be so stupid as to publish your work in a public place where someone can easily copy or download the image without paying a £sumofmoney for the photograph.

And for christ sake, avoid posting said image, Hi-Res enough for someone like the BBC to publish the image large enough for the whole world to see your 'now free' work in beautiful, crystal clear, glossy, shiny, happy, glorious replication for everyones viewing pleasure...
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Old 26-07-2008, 18:05   #14 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

The blame does sit with the organiser , Im surprised at the BBC for not asking them the origins, they should be clued up a bit more .

Good luck let us know what happens, in any case Id probably mention it to the BBC, you never know might get more work
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Old 26-07-2008, 18:19   #15 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

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Originally Posted by traer View Post
And for christ sake, avoid posting said image, Hi-Res enough for someone like the BBC to publish the image large enough for the whole world to see your 'now free' work in beautiful, crystal clear, glossy, shiny, happy, glorious replication for everyones viewing pleasure...
So I guess it's OK that everything in here is available to anyone to do whatever they want without payment or notification to yourself?
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Old 26-07-2008, 18:32   #16 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

I wouldn't post anything on this forum that i haven't already been paid for, or want to make profit from after the post! I would never post the high res copies either.

Photography isn't that big a deal, I am a photographer and i know that at the end of the day, i pressed a button - i am not changing the world, i am not getting millions, i doesn't even fund some new winter gloves. Any money gets distributed around my family for whatever we need at the time - even a couple more pennies for the jar.

Don't tell me that you think photography is the be all and end all of life, will it really matter to you what happens to your photo's in a 100 years?

Never stress about anything that's not going to change things in a drastic way, lifes too short...so, someone used the guys photo's, let him follow it up, let him learn from his mistake, I am positive he won't do it again.
I have had people use photo's without my consent - oh, no!! - but i dealt with it in a calm and collective way. I didn't come on to a forum to tell the whole world about how someone used my photo on XYZ.

You make phone calls, you contact people who were involved! Don't come on here for a little sympathy. If you don't want someone to use a photo of yours, then deal with the image in a way that doesn't allow someone to get hold of it.

Thumbnails, Low-Res, Small and pixelated - aim for that everytime.
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Old 27-07-2008, 00:56   #17 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

I totally agree with stepheno..... Go for the throat, what makes them think its ok to do that.
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Old 27-07-2008, 12:12   #18 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

Maybe the BBC has payed the Event organiser serveral hundred pounds for the use of the photo, after all the bbc can afford it , surly, and maybe the EVENT ORGANISERs have not passed it on to the relevant parties, we live in a weird world guys sometimes we have to wake up and smell the coffee.
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Old 28-07-2008, 20:39   #19 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

It's definitely worth contacting them as they're out of order for putting up the pic without permission but I rather think the most you'll get is an apology and a promise that it won't happen again.

As for invoicing them, well, what did the Beeb gain commercially by using the pic? What will you do if they won't pay anything? Sue them? I guess you could take them to the Small Claims Court (not sure how much you'll have to pay to do that) but I rather think their defence will be that they gained no commercial advantage from the image (and they'll be able to prove that they don't make payment for images used)
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Old 29-07-2008, 01:21   #20 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

I didn't see your photo/s via the link Mike, as I think it links to the current weather report, rather than to an historic one; whatever the case, your pic/s were not to be seen (and I watched it twice)

Anyway, to your dilemma ... whilst, to a sympathizer of your cause, traer is sounding rather heartless in his comments, however I have to agree with his rationale that if you post pic's publicly on a forum, then you are hardly closely guarding them, so to raise your hands in horror when your pic's are used by others, does seem to be rather melodramatic.

You really should have arranged with the organiser initially any fees that you wanted to charge for your images, rather than seeing it published, and then deciding on a figure of a whopping £500 just because it's the BBC + you assume they can afford it, i.e. you pick a figure you think they could afford + might be likely to cough up

Sorry but I think you went about things the wrong way around in this instance Mike; you left yourself wide open + now want to cash in - in a big way - on someone's faux pas/ignorance/whatever - remembering that you must share the blame for the ambiguity of the whole fee thing - and so I conclude that your own conduct + expectations regarding this issue seem less than fair to me.

Lesson learned I think ... sounds like it's time for you to learn about the business side of photography methinks, so you can avoid a repeat, since it seems that you are ready to start charging for your photographs - best do it properly, for a more pleasant - and agreed - 'transaction' next time
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Old 29-07-2008, 10:35   #21 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

As stated before, copyright stays with you whether you post on public forum or not. So any law abiding commercial outfit, incl BBC , should not publish a photograph without the owners permission, or indeed potentially without paying. Mike is quite correct on this front.

In this scenario though it seems the organiser may be the one at fault & therefore makes it more complicated.

Re the idea that posting a high res image leaves yourself open for being ripped off, then I can see 2 sides to this. Yes some unscrupulous person could take your image & use it without your permission , but you would expect any law abiding company to honour your copyright. What's the difference in publishing a shot on the web, vs in a magazine .... does that mean people are free to scan your published magazine photo & use as they see fit ?

As for sharing this story on a forum, it's the whole reason for a community. We all have our own opinions , heated debate can be healthy, but I would ask we always try to remain respectful to other members at all time
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Old 29-07-2008, 10:52   #22 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

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As for sharing this story on a forum, it's the whole reason for a community. We all have our own opinions , heated debate can be healthy, but I would ask we always try to remain respectful to other members at all time
+1.

I've said my bit previously about copyright in the digital age - how difficult it is to protect it and how we should perhaps be moving to a different business model that doesn't depend on it - but, in the meantime, companies that are so keen to defend their copyright should practise what they preach.
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Old 29-07-2008, 11:15   #23 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

if you get 500 quid - I'll eat my hat...
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Old 29-07-2008, 13:01   #24 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

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if you get 500 quid - I'll eat my hat...

Dialled - that has to be the best comment on this ************

Last edited by Dave; 29-07-2008 at 13:57. Reason: Please see my last comment in post 21 above
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Old 29-07-2008, 14:03   #25 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

Rates here for broadcasting :- NUJ Freelance Fees Guide: Photography - Broadcasting - rates
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Old 29-07-2008, 14:20   #26 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

I woluld love it if someone thought any of my photographs were deserving of a wider audience. Though I would like a credit.
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Old 29-07-2008, 14:35   #27 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

I had a shot here published :- http://www.pixalo.com/community/news...ine-13538.html

The magazine made it clear they were not willing to pay for the shots, but it was good publicity for the Camera club. On that basis I agreed to have my shot included (even though T&C's of entering shots in Camera club meant they could use shots for publicity).

The point is I was asked , which I think is why Mike is quite rightly peeved of not having that option with his shot.
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Old 29-07-2008, 15:36   #28 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

yeah, I've had over 60 pics used - including front page newspapers and the bbc news website and over 50 from a local newspaper (tho, we had an agreement that they could use any of my pics free of charge!) - some of which I did get paid for and others not...

edit - links of pics here -
Used elsewhere... - a set on Flickr
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Old 29-07-2008, 15:44   #29 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

Well done on the publications

Can I ask when you decide to sell a shot or offer for free ? The subject of offering shots for free is always a thorn in the side of any pro's out there
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Old 29-07-2008, 15:56   #30 (permalink)
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Re: The BBC, what a cheeky bunch of ........

I sat and read this thread a few times and something seems to have been overlooked by accident or lack of respect for mike.

This statement of his sums it up for me

Quote:
but neither the event organiser who copied the pic, OR the BBC asked to use my photo .
Mr Cat

Quote:
tho, we had an agreement that they could use any of my pics free of charge!
You had an agreement Mike did not !

Charlotte

Quote:
You really should have arranged with the organiser initially any fees that you wanted to charge for your images, rather than seeing it published, and then deciding on a figure of a whopping £500
How do you arrange something if your totally in the dark about the whole thing ??

trear

Quote:
You make phone calls, you contact people who were involved! Don't come on here for a little sympathy. If you don't want someone to use a photo of yours, then deal with the image in a way that doesn't allow someone to get hold of it.
Why should Mike not seek a little solace from friends, he has whether you agree or not had something of his stolen.

I am saddened by this thread that people can't offer a little solace, to rub a bumped knee and make it better when someone is aggrieved by someone else's miss use and abuse of property and trust.

Whilst I think maybe Mike was quoting £500 tongue in cheek there seems to me to be a group of members that almost condone whats been done.

The point still remains

Quote:
but neither the event organiser who copied the pic, OR the BBC asked to use my photo .
I have been subject to plagiarism by a member of another site, fortunately as a Mod on both I dealt with it in an amicable way. He removed my picture or was no longer a member of each site. That placated me and took away the bad taste.
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