Pixalo Photography Community

Go Back   Pixalo Photography Community > Photography Forums > General photography questions and answers

General photography questions and answers: Discuss Child protection and photography...Hi folks - hoping someone has come across this and can give some advice... Last night I did some photography ...
Welcome to the Pixalo Photography Community. As a Guest you are free to browse the site, but see what extras you get as a Member here.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 25-07-2009, 10:12   #1 (permalink)
Forum Regular
 
Larne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Warrington, Cheshire, UK
Posts: 738
Larne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura about

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Child protection and photography

Hi folks - hoping someone has come across this and can give some advice...

Last night I did some photography at a pop music event set up by a youth organisation. It was done by agreement with the event organisers and I know they are hoping to use some of the images on their website or maybe in publications.

At the end of the event the guy in charge surprised me by saying he needed copies of ALL images I had shot for child protection purposes as there were children there (a lot of the kids were in their teens) and they did not have permission from parents.

I certainly was not expecting that and I am not keen to hand over all my 'negatives' not least because I tend to shoot a lot that I discard and sharing them will obviously impact on the perception of my work . But also I would be worried about them using some of the images that I was not happy with - as a photographer I am very protective of my own work.

My understanding of the law is that the restrictions where they exist are around the use to which photographs are put, not on the shooting side. However, I have never come up against someone quoting 'child protection' before so I'm unsure whether this is more of the usual PC paranoia that is going around at the moment or if there is some specific legislation I need to be aware of.

Has anyone come across this or can refute it?

~Niall
__________________
"Good decisions are based on experience - Experience is based on bad decisions."
Always try to learn from other people's experience - it's less painful that way!
------
Find my website here - Photography by Niall Pagdin
Larne is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2009, 10:49   #2 (permalink)
New here
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7
johnw is on a distinguished roadjohnw is on a distinguished roadjohnw is on a distinguished road
User's Gallery
Re: Child protection and photography

My current work is in and around child protection I have never seen a requirement of this kind before.

Did you enter into a written contract before you agreed to do the shoot? If you did and this requirement isn't in the contract I suggest you ask for written notification of the request for the images including a reference to the law which authorises it. If they can find an obscure bit of law which permits this you may have to comply, in which case you should negotiate an increase in fee. I suspect they won't find anything in law although there may be a local rule in force at the location/organisation you dealt with. If that is the case they should have drawn it to your attention before they allowed you to take any photos.

I take it you have an enhanced CRB check? If not you should consider getting one, if only to protect yourself from allegations. If you do have an enhanced CRB check that should be sufficient to negate any need for you to part with all the images.

If they get really difficult you could consider depositing everything with a lawyer. You then tell the person making the request that all the images are being held by an independent professional person and invite them to take out court proceedings to gain possession.
johnw is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2009, 12:49   #3 (permalink)
Forum Regular
 
Larne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Warrington, Cheshire, UK
Posts: 738
Larne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura about

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: Child protection and photography

Thanks johnw.

It was an unpaid shoot for a charity, done as much for the experience (I have never done low-light 'gig' photography before) as for any other reason so there is no issue around fees. As is oft the case with these things the agreement went along the lines of "mind if I take some pictures?" ... "sure, if we can use some of them" ... "no problem" certainly nothing in writing.

I suspect (even more so since your post) that the organisers are just being paranoid with the current PC culture around photos of kids. Several kids there had camera phones out and I doubt any of them got asked to hand over their images.

I don't have a CRB, taking pictures of kids was not something I planned on, but as you suggest it's probably a good idea just to be on the safe side.

Out of around 300 frames shot only about 5% had kids in anyway as they were not what I was there to shoot.

Thanks for the advice.
Larne is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2009, 12:59   #4 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
stepheno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bingley
Posts: 10,668
stepheno is a jewel in the rough
stepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the rough

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Re: Child protection and photography

Much as John says. But also consider that, IMO, this matter is more about photographers rights than Child Protection and you were at an organised event, not in a public place. There is always an "I'm in charge" person who automatically thinks that the description also elevates his intellect and knowledge. He certainly has no right to your images. This links to a pdf document summarising photographers rights.
stepheno is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2009, 13:00   #5 (permalink)
Feet under the table
 
bain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rotherham
Posts: 1,749
bain will become famous soon enoughbain will become famous soon enoughbain will become famous soon enoughbain will become famous soon enoughbain will become famous soon enoughbain will become famous soon enough

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: Child protection and photography

Quote:
It was done by agreement with the event organisers
.
i feel that permission for local events such as these ,the responsibility for child protection comes down not to the event organisers but the local council, they will have atained particuler rules to cover the event under a host of regulations including Fire regulation general health and Safety rules to child protection.
If the event orginsers had set up to discuss theses in their contract for the event these issues would be covered and if they agreed for a photogragher to be present then the issue of child protection will be covered in the contract for the event.
As far as requesting copies it's quite clear he has no understanding of the law i refer to JOHNW..
Quote:
If they get really difficult you could consider depositing everything with a lawyer. You then tell the person making the request that all the images are being held by an independent professional person and invite them to take out court proceedings to gain possession.
__________________
The real voyage of discovery consists of not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
bain is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2009, 13:12   #6 (permalink)
Forum Regular
 
sejanus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 708
sejanus has a spectacular aura aboutsejanus has a spectacular aura aboutsejanus has a spectacular aura aboutsejanus has a spectacular aura aboutsejanus has a spectacular aura aboutsejanus has a spectacular aura aboutsejanus has a spectacular aura aboutsejanus has a spectacular aura about
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: Child protection and photography

In retaliation to the current mentality of "There's a man with a camera, he must be a child molester", I'm considering getting a T-shirt made that reads: "There's a man with his child - HE must be a child molester". I base this on the research of N.J.Wild, who investigated fifty alleged cases of sexual abuse in the 'eighties. He decided that thirty of the cases were proven (28 of the victims were girls) and that 17 of the offenders were close relatives. You can read the entire text of the article here: Sexual abuse of children in Leeds.

As is so often the case, in this tabloid-centric society, the truth is out there but damned few bother to find it.
__________________
Still trying, or at least, that's what my wife says... http://www.pixis.info
sejanus is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2009, 18:24   #7 (permalink)
New here
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7
johnw is on a distinguished roadjohnw is on a distinguished roadjohnw is on a distinguished road
User's Gallery
Re: Child protection and photography

Quote:
Originally Posted by stepheno View Post
but also consider that, IMO, this matter is more about photographers rights than Child Protection
I think you are right, the problem is that being known as an awkward so and so who is always quoting his rights is a lot less nasty than being suspected to be a paedophile.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stepheno View Post
and you were at an organised event, not in a public place.
So the usual defence of it being a public place and, therefore, no restrictions on photography won't work.




My advice, which is a personal opinion only, is that in the current climate anybody in a closed environment with children is at risk of all sorts of allegations regardless of whether they take photographs or not. If this was the usual type of disco it will have been poorly lit, tightly packed with people and the girls may not have been wearing very much. In short a potential disaster no matter how careful the photographer may have been. He may well have been the only adult there without a CRB check.

I wouldn't take on anything like that without a written agreement. I would want the agreement to state specifically if a CRB check was required or not. If not, I would want to know who was going to keep an eye on me during the evening. I would also expect it to set out any possible use for the images, whether on payment of fee or FOC. I would also want it to state what censorship, if any would be exercised and by who. It should be easy enough to put together a list of questions that you can print out each time and go through with who ever is organising the do. All it then needs is a few ticks or crosses and a signature on the bottom. All of which implies a very professional attitude and could easily lead to more work.

If all that sounds like overkill its because I have seen too many lives ruined by false accusation and local gossip to be willing to take a chance.
johnw is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2009, 23:19   #8 (permalink)
Growing roots
 
Charlotte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Romsey, Hampshire
Posts: 8,392
Charlotte is a glorious beacon of lightCharlotte is a glorious beacon of light
Charlotte is a glorious beacon of lightCharlotte is a glorious beacon of lightCharlotte is a glorious beacon of lightCharlotte is a glorious beacon of lightCharlotte is a glorious beacon of lightCharlotte is a glorious beacon of lightCharlotte is a glorious beacon of lightCharlotte is a glorious beacon of lightCharlotte is a glorious beacon of lightCharlotte is a glorious beacon of light

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: Child protection and photography

I would defo be suspicious of the guy who is asking for the copies I don't see how his having copies is in any way going to help "child protection" And if you give him copies, how on earth will he know if you gave him ALL of the ones you actually took It is not up to him to ask you for copies of all your shots, and you do not have to give them to him; as you rightly say, it is how you use the shots that matter. Why did he only take this approach with you after the event, and not before, so that you all would've been clear about it My stance would be: You had his prior permission to take pictures, albeit unofficially (next time, get it in writing!). In any event, ownership + copyright in the images you took belong to you, not him, and so he has no right to lay claim to copies of them.

Of course, legally speaking, I could be totally wrong, but these are my feelings on the matter
__________________
What you do todayis important because you exchanged a day of your life for it

You only ever get one chance to make a good first impression

Work Smarter, Not Harder
Charlotte is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 26-07-2009, 12:43   #9 (permalink)
Forum Regular
 
Larne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Warrington, Cheshire, UK
Posts: 738
Larne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura aboutLarne has a spectacular aura about

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: Child protection and photography

I appreciate all the remarks - all of which fall in line with my own views on the matter.

Personally speaking I don't read any specific motives into the chap in this case; I suspect he just didn't think it through when he agreed to the photography and then had a sudden bout of nervousness. I automatically self-sensor on the basis both of content and model release grounds before I release any images anyway. I don't have any daughters but I tend to look at each image and think "would I want my daughter to be photographed like that?" and as a professional photographer I am constantly thinking about whether I have the legal right to use / share the image (where was it take, of who, with what expectation of privacy and so on).

To be honest I suspect there might be just as much trouble with me passing on photos to a third party in any case. If I, as a photographer, believe that some of the images may not be suitable (and there were a couple) and if I also know that no model release has been granted then passing them on to the event organiser could also be legally and morally questionable.

I have done my selection and processing by this point. The originals are already archived onto DVD and will be deleted from the hard disk - that's part of my workflow for commissioned events anyway as I know I can't use the images for any other purpose. If the performer asks for any copies they will only get ones with no-one else in and for the event organiser the selection they get will go along with a clear statement that they cannot use them without model releases covering every identifiable individual in each image.

It was a fun event to shoot but I can see why people would want to avoid settings like that - it's a total minefield.
Larne is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 26-07-2009, 17:33   #10 (permalink)
Pixalo Crew
 
stepheno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bingley
Posts: 10,668
stepheno is a jewel in the rough
stepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the roughstepheno is a jewel in the rough

Image editing O.K.
User's Gallery
Re: Child protection and photography

Thanks for your feedback Larne.....but don't let it put you off, just take extra care with events like these
stepheno is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2009, 09:24   #11 (permalink)
Forum Regular
 
Silver Dragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Manchester area, UK
Posts: 738
Silver Dragon has a spectacular aura aboutSilver Dragon has a spectacular aura aboutSilver Dragon has a spectacular aura aboutSilver Dragon has a spectacular aura aboutSilver Dragon has a spectacular aura aboutSilver Dragon has a spectacular aura aboutSilver Dragon has a spectacular aura aboutSilver Dragon has a spectacular aura aboutSilver Dragon has a spectacular aura aboutSilver Dragon has a spectacular aura aboutSilver Dragon has a spectacular aura about

Image edit - ASK
User's Gallery
Users Camera Equipment List
Re: Child protection and photography

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larne View Post
At the end of the event the guy in charge surprised me by saying he needed copies of ALL images I had shot for child protection purposes as there were children there (a lot of the kids were in their teens) and they did not have permission from parents.
~Niall
... If he had demanded the 'negatives' there and then, I would have given a very short rude answer......

I have read the thread, this subject has been of interest to me, since I started taking photo's, and I am always careful to ask permission first in "Private" functions, as I am aware that some people are "Camera Shy", (me being one....) and dont want to invade peoples privacy.

If anything I believe to be true, as stated below, is wrong, can someone correct me now... I dont want to be out taking photo's believing "I have the right" if indeed I dont.....?....

I have done a shoot for a charity before, and I covered all the bases regarding the "Legal" side, in that, if permission is given for photo's to be taken, then agreement is given.....
I was careful to find out as much as I could, as this was a "Children" event, and I didnt want to upset anyone, as this was a charity I wanted to help.

In the eventual disk I produced, I entered a short text file stating that as the photographer (and therefore legal copywrite owner of the photo's) I agreed to allow the photo's to be used by the charity in any way they needed for their own promotional needs... I had no wish to profit from these photo's myself.

This "Parental Permission" thing should have been stated before the permission to shoot was agreed... that is the end of that argument....
In the shoot I did, it was covered, in that, any parent NOT agreeing shouldnt have sent the kid in the first place, as all parents should have been warned that some photo's would be used for future promotional purposes...
If that warning was not stated, the event organizers were adrift in their responsibility, but usually, if the parent agrees to the kid being there, they cannot disagree to photography, as that would negate the use of security video being taken. (Even if its not being taken...)

Was there any sign saying "No Photography", did they confiscate camera's "At the door", were other people taking photo's?... (Even with camera phones...)

If permission was granted, then permission was granted, and editorial control stays with the photographer...
That covers ANYONE taking photo's at the event, they cannot single out one person unless they control all photography.

The only way they can have further control would have been to employ you as "official" photographer, but even then, editorial control remains with the photographer, in that, you have the right to delete shots that DONT work before anyone else views them.

If they want copies of shots, they can wait until you produce a disk/whatever medium you decide to pass them on, they do not have the right to demand ALL shots taken, they then can choose which shots THEY use.....
Unless stated beforehand, they cannot control what shots YOU use.

The Legality of it is, that if they agreed in the first place to allow you, even verbally, take some shots, they have in that, already waived any editorial control...
Organized event or not, if they wanted editorial control, they should have said BEFORE the shutter was pressed.

As far as I can make it out, legally, unless you are invading privacy, trespassing, breaking the law, or creating a nuisance, any photograph you take belongs to you.
NO ONE has the right to say "You cant take my photo", unless they are in a private place where it is stated that photography is not allowed....
The only exception to that rule is if the shot is considered to be pornographic.

If you have asked permission to take photographs, and permission has been granted, they have waived any legal right to "Demand" anything.....
As they said, "If we can use some", they have requested that you pass on copies of what you took, but as that did NOT include "We want to see what you are taking" before you started, they have not requested editorial control...

.... This is "As Far as I know", and as the laws stand in the UK... I remain, as ever, always open to correction if what I know is not right..............
__________________
Trying not to drive faster than my guardian angel flies......
Silver Dragon is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Q&A: Conficker protection dabhand16 Computer hardware, software, networking and internet 0 31-03-2009 16:03
A+L mortgage protection muscle750 General Chat 5 26-03-2009 20:35
camera protection aideyhoward General photography questions and answers 4 10-12-2008 16:09
Phorm needs 'better protection' dabhand16 General Chat 0 18-03-2008 19:30
Peli Protection now available for Laptops dabhand16 Computer hardware, software, networking and internet 0 18-05-2007 15:43


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:17.


vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ReviewPost & PhotoPost vB3 Enhanced, Copyright 2003-2014 All Enthusiast, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.0
Copyright © 2006 - 2017 Pixalo.com

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196