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Old 18-06-2007, 21:52   #1 (permalink)
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Clipped Highlights

I've got a little bogged down of late with my editing.......the problem being clipping of highlights.

I start off with a RAW file with an histogram that shows no clipping on the right hand side but after sharpening and converting to sRGB for web the histogram obviously changes showing clipped highlights.

I tried burning them back but that just spoilt the image

I've looked at a few images on the web that also display clipped highlights so are they regarded as acceptable
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Old 18-06-2007, 22:03   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

Have you tried doing the opposite - working in sRGB then converting back to Adobe then checking the histogram? If it shows the graph well in, it might be that the wider gamut of Adobe is giving more tolerance.

I never check the histogram if I remember to convert to sRGB, but if anything, when I assign sRGB the image changes on my monitor to look cooler/more subdued.
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Old 18-06-2007, 22:15   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

Yes I tried Adobe Graham and that holds the histogram OK.

Just wondered if clipping was acceptable for showing images on the web .....I've been getting a little obsessive trying to burn them back
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Old 18-06-2007, 22:50   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

P-E, I personally wouldn't say that clipped highlights were an accepted norm, no.

Have you tried editing your RAW leaving extra room for clipped highlights to appear later on, i.e. make sure they're not close to being clipped at the stage of exporting to jpeg?
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Old 18-06-2007, 23:03   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

Yes tried that Charlotte........converting to sRGB will show some clipping but I assume most will be out of my monitors gamut anyway

I've just looked at one of your images Charlotte.........you've clipped the highlights!
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Old 18-06-2007, 23:34   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

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Originally Posted by P-E View Post
I've just looked at one of your images Charlotte.........you've clipped the highlights!

Not knowingly
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Old 18-06-2007, 23:38   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte View Post

Not knowingly
yer right
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Old 18-06-2007, 23:44   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E View Post
yer right


Had a thought ... key word is "sharpening" I think, RAW editors don't do this so good, a bit like cameras ... try exporting with little or no sharpening, + do the sharpening in PS. Thought of this because I've recently stopped sharpening in Lightroom, tho' leaving the noise reduction sliders as set, + then sharpening in PhotoPlus, which does a much better job of it than Lightroom
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Old 18-06-2007, 23:54   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

All sharpening turned off in my RAW editor.........I sharpen with Photokit Sharpener in CS.
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Old 18-06-2007, 23:58   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

I always set the sharpening to zero in bridge and LR and only sharpen in PS.

Bearing in mind this increases contrast, could it be that this is the clipping?
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Old 18-06-2007, 23:59   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

..................

Has this problem only just started?
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Old 19-06-2007, 00:02   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E View Post
All sharpening turned off in my RAW editor.........I sharpen with Photokit Sharpener in CS.
Wait a minute, you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E View Post
I start off with a RAW file with an histogram that shows no clipping on the right hand side but after sharpening and converting to sRGB for web ...
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Old 19-06-2007, 00:05   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

I've always checked in CS and always tried to burn them back..........It looks to me as though a lot of images on here and the web have a degree of clipped highlights.

I meant the final stage in CS.....sharpening and converting to sRGB.
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Old 19-06-2007, 00:26   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

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... sharpening and converting to sRGB.
There lies the answer I think, you should be doing the sharpening on the sRGB file, not the RAW
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Old 19-06-2007, 00:36   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

Just come across a post on Luminous Landscape.......

"The clipping that you're seeing is normal. sRGB is a relatively small space and most natural imagery will contain some colors that exceed the space".
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Old 19-06-2007, 00:42   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

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Just come across a post on Luminous Landscape.......

"The clipping that you're seeing is normal. sRGB is a relatively small space and most natural imagery will contain some colors that exceed the space".
Stop looking for excuses for clipping highlights That's talking about clipped colours not blown highlights!

BTW what is "natural imagery"
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Old 19-06-2007, 00:46   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

Thats what I'm on about clipped not blown highlights!

" Natural imagery"
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Old 19-06-2007, 00:49   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

.....and you can correct the clipped highlights by using a method called......

"output-dependent image tuning"

I've also now changed my Colour conversion Intent in CS to 'Perceptual'.
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Old 19-06-2007, 00:55   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

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Thats what I'm on about clipped not blown highlights!
P-E I think you're having me on and/or been on the
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Old 19-06-2007, 01:00   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

"Output-dependent image tuning"........look it up Charlotte and I expect a full report in the morning

By the way I've just tried it and it works!

Seriously I did mean colour clipping and not blown highlights........sorry if I misled you Charlotte

Past my bedtime!
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Old 19-06-2007, 01:00   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

Quote:
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.....and you can correct the clipped highlights by using a method called......

"output-dependent image tuning"

I've also now changed my Colour conversion Intent in CS to 'Perceptual'.
Now you're really scrambling my brain ... output-dependent thingamy what? I take "colour conversion intent" to mean rendering intent, which is relative to output to a printer ... what has that to do with this topic
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Old 19-06-2007, 06:47   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

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I've looked at a few images on the web that also display clipped highlights so are they regarded as acceptable
I'd say it depends on your use. If you are trying to get an approximate rendering of an image displayed on the web, then it doesn't. If you're trying to get the best possible display of an image on the web, then it does matter!

Personally, my workflow is geared to print as the final destination, so I'm willing to put effort into maximising image quality to that end. The processing of my image thereafter, whilst I'd argue is "optimum", is inevitably going to "suffer" from the consequences of using, for instance, Adobe RGB and possibly some differential sharpening at an early stage

Web display is, at best, perceptual and with the reduction in quality through size and compression constraints I might even argue that clipping could be beneficial (as extremes of contrast work "better" at the lower res).

The trick is to make sure that the final destination image (for me it's print) is as free as is needed to be of burned or clipped areas
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Old 19-06-2007, 08:03   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

Appreciate your input Mark
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Old 19-06-2007, 10:15   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

I've been having a lot of success recently by setting compensation to retain the highlights in the viewfinder and dodging the shadows in Photoshop.

It's amazing how things come round again!
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Old 22-06-2007, 20:41   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

might be completely off topic,,does this have something to do with CS3 and the show clipped data when changing contrast with curves in raw? I never really worried about clipping unless I needed as much of the image as possible. Marks answer about the web sounds good to me,,,,but I am not that good with the web. I do know that when you can print your screen flip for flop your doing pretty good. Have had CS3 sence Fathers day....and a new HD screen....how's that for an egoooo.
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Old 23-06-2007, 09:40   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

Getting a litle less worried about clipping the colours now Boofers......plus trying to understand it all

Here is a histogram of the same image.....one in Adobe RGB and the other converted to sRGB.



The image had a very prominent orange which after converting to sRGB has clipped the red channel........I presume this has gone out of the gamut
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Old 23-06-2007, 15:57   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

it also clipped your dark blues, which to me means a shift in your light magenta, or there abouts. Just by the numbers, it dosen't look like you lost alot of color, here is a copy of an artical: (Note that clipping doesn't just happen with white or with black. There are three colours recorded (red, green, blue), and there are cases where one or two colours are clipped but the other isn't. This causes some of the colours to shift. For instance, imagine something with an RGB value of (225,200,100), which is sort of orange. Now overexpose it a stop. It should become (450,400,200), which would be a brighter orange, but in eight bits, the maximum value for each is 255, so you end up with (255,255,200), which is yellow. The colour shifted because of clipping.)
Now after that little tid bit and the face of a color shift,,I think you had a lot to think about I look at it like music and how I feel about where the next few notes might shift my rythm,,,say like clipping in 16bit mode,,which would give a more blended type of shift because of more tone values. Very interesting thread you have going here even though you seem to have come to a pleasent understanding of clipping. I think about it all the time in terms of color shifting, but every picture has it's own overture..

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Old 23-06-2007, 16:11   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Clipped Highlights

How's this for a color shift routine, YouTube - Paintjam Dan Dunn
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Old 25-06-2007, 07:51   #29 (permalink)
P-E
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Re: Clipped Highlights

That guy got some talent in the video Boofers
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