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Old 21-06-2005, 02:19   #1 (permalink)
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Don't throw away your copyright

Came across an unpleasant forum/gallery site today ukexpert.co.uk laying in amongst the t&c lay this little booby-trap
"Please note that expert is building a collection of quality photographs in its photos and videos area. If you upload photos to us please help ensure they get released for viewing by not uploading small cut down versions of photos nor ones with names or other information included on them.

By uploading images and messages and other material to the system you warrant that you own the rights to do so and that you grant 'expert' permanent copyright ownership equal to your own for all materials uploaded.

This includes a permanent right for expert and its associated systems and companies to make use of them in any way they see fit, including but not limited to use in advertising and promotional material. This means you can continue to do as you please with your photos and other materials uploaded but by adding these items to the expert collection/system you are granting expert the right to also do as it pleases with them"

How's that for creating an image library on the cheap? You do the work, they make all the money without even telling you. I suspect most of the users on the mentioned site are totally oblivious to the fact that their work is being sold.

be careful out there

Andy
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Old 21-06-2005, 09:48   #2 (permalink)
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I suspect it's partly that they are covering themselves legally. If you read the t&cs of any isp for example there's often a clause that grants then copyright over any material transmitted over their networks. I remember many many years ago when compuserve first added such a clause to their terms it created a big stink.
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Old 21-06-2005, 10:06   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steep
I suspect it's partly that they are covering themselves legally. If you read the t&cs of any isp for example there's often a clause that grants then copyright over any material transmitted over their networks. I remember many many years ago when compuserve first added such a clause to their terms it created a big stink.
If only that were the case. This is worded differently to anything I have seen before (msn for example).... no other site or isp that I have seen has ever demanded TOTAL and UNQUALIFIED use of your images. In any case, why do you think they are asking that images are uploaded at max size without any copyright banners on them?

The clincher came as I did a google images search, finding they have supplied, on a commercial basis, images with copyright to ukexpert.co.uk... you can bet your bottom $ that the photographers are blissfully unaware of the situation.

There's no reason nor excuses for a forum/gallery owner to have any claim on your work.

cheers,
Andy
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Old 21-06-2005, 10:35   #4 (permalink)
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Cheeky bastids!! :roll:
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Old 21-06-2005, 10:45   #5 (permalink)
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not a good one that is it!
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Old 21-06-2005, 10:47   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
If only that were the case. This is worded differently to anything I have seen before (msn for example).... no other site or isp that I have seen has ever demanded TOTAL and UNQUALIFIED use of your images. In any case, why do you think they are asking that images are uploaded at max size without any copyright banners on them?

The clincher came as I did a google images search, finding they have supplied, on a commercial basis, images with copyright to ukexpert.co.uk... you can bet your bottom $ that the photographers are blissfully unaware of the situation.

There's no reason nor excuses for a forum/gallery owner to have any claim on your work.

cheers,
Andy
The bbc do this too, it's totally unacceptable
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Old 21-06-2005, 11:06   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink Fairy
There's no reason nor excuses for a forum/gallery owner to have any claim on your work.
Absolutely and from what I have seen here their stance is shear profiteering done under a cloaked clause. It would be different if they where asking for use and offering some payment or service in return but this is clearly not the case.
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Old 21-06-2005, 11:24   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Don't throw away your copyright

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink Fairy
Came across an unpleasant forum/gallery site today ukexpert.co.uk laying in amongst the t&c lay this little booby-trap
"Please note that expert is building a collection of quality photographs in its photos and videos area. If you upload photos to us please help ensure they get released for viewing by not uploading small cut down versions of photos nor ones with names or other information included on them.

By uploading images and messages and other material to the system you warrant that you own the rights to do so and that you grant 'expert' permanent copyright ownership equal to your own for all materials uploaded.

This includes a permanent right for expert and its associated systems and companies to make use of them in any way they see fit, including but not limited to use in advertising and promotional material. This means you can continue to do as you please with your photos and other materials uploaded but by adding these items to the expert collection/system you are granting expert the right to also do as it pleases with them"

How's that for creating an image library on the cheap? You do the work, they make all the money without even telling you. I suspect most of the users on the mentioned site are totally oblivious to the fact that their work is being sold.

be careful out there

Andy
Has a topic been rasied on their forum about this to let the members know ? Would be interesting to know how long the topic remained visible and what comments were made ?
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Old 21-06-2005, 11:25   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Absolutely and from what I have seen here their stance is shear profiteering done under a cloaked clause. It would be different if they where asking for use and offering some payment or service in return but this is clearly not the case.
If there's one thing I cannot abide is people leaching off the hard work of others like this. The Egg tv commercials come to mind.

Does anyone have a link to the bbc photo t&c? I'm not familiar with their forums and suchlike.


cheers,
Andy
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Old 21-06-2005, 11:32   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Don't throw away your copyright

Quote:
Originally Posted by IanC_UK

Has a topic been rasied on their forum about this to let the members know ? Would be interesting to know how long the topic remained visible and what comments were made ?
Lol, the site is moderated beyond belief... even after e-mail verification you still have to wait for admin to validate you manually. I have a feeling all posts to the forum section are also delayed until they are cleared.... all this adds up to a site that puts people off from the outset, not too mention the amazingly arrogant domain name.

I e-mailed their Admin (someone called Steve from Ruislip) with my feelings and I was rapidly i.p. banned from the site! Fortunately in the meantime I traced a few of their main photo contributors to warn them.

cheers,
Andy
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Old 21-06-2005, 11:37   #11 (permalink)
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Cool, sounds like they are a bunch of -insert own abusive phrase-
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Old 21-06-2005, 11:41   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Don't throw away your copyright

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink Fairy

I e-mailed their Admin (someone called Steve from Ruislip) with my feelings and I was rapidly i.p. banned from the site! Fortunately in the meantime I traced a few of their main photo contributors to warn them.

cheers,
Andy
That alone speaks volumes for their intentions and ways of lining their pockets by doing nothing themselves and praying on the skill and goodwill of others. All under a hidden clause.

That disgusts me !!!
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Old 21-06-2005, 11:46   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Don't throw away your copyright

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink Fairy

I e-mailed their Admin (someone called Steve from Ruislip) with my feelings and I was rapidly i.p. banned from the site! Fortunately in the meantime I traced a few of their main photo contributors to warn them.

cheers,
Andy
That alone speaks volumes for their intentions and ways of lining their pockets by doing nothing themselves and praying on the skill and goodwill of others. All under a hidden clause.

That disgusts me !!!
Me to Steve !
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Old 21-06-2005, 11:59   #14 (permalink)
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gah and me!

what a bunch of crooks.

gonna look up the bbc thing myself, dont want them having copyright over my images, the feckers..i pay my licence fee, not lining their pockets any other way

bbc T&C says this:

Quote:
Contributions to bbc.co.uk
Where you are invited to submit any contribution to bbc.co.uk (including any text, photographs, graphics, video or audio) you agree, by submitting your contribution, to grant the BBC a perpetual, royalty-free, non-exclusive, sub-licenseable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, play, make available to the public, and exercise all copyright and publicity rights with respect to your contribution worldwide and/or to incorporate your contribution in other works in any media now known or later developed for the full term of any rights that may exist in your contribution, and in accordance with privacy restrictions set out in the BBC's Privacy Policy. If you do not want to grant to the BBC the rights set out above, please do not submit your contribution to bbc.co.uk.
gits.
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Old 21-06-2005, 12:05   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EosD

bbc T&C says this:
Quote:
Contributions to bbc.co.uk
Where you are invited to submit any contribution to bbc.co.uk (including any text, photographs, graphics, video or audio) you agree, by submitting your contribution, to grant the BBC a perpetual, royalty-free, non-exclusive, sub-licenseable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, play, make available to the public, and exercise all copyright and publicity rights with respect to your contribution worldwide and/or to incorporate your contribution in other works in any media now known or later developed for the full term of any rights that may exist in your contribution, and in accordance with privacy restrictions set out in the BBC's Privacy Policy. If you do not want to grant to the BBC the rights set out above, please do not submit your contribution to bbc.co.uk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EosD
gits.
That sums it up perfectly in one word.

I am so glad I have not submitted anything to the "Picture of Britain" thing now. [smilie=f:

And this has given me the first oppotunity to use that smilie legitimately :lol:
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Old 21-06-2005, 12:07   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EosD

Quote:
Contributions to bbc.co.uk
Where you are invited to submit any contribution to bbc.co.uk (including any text, photographs, graphics, video or audio) you agree, by submitting your contribution, to grant the BBC a perpetual, royalty-free, non-exclusive, sub-licenseable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, play, make available to the public, and exercise all copyright and publicity rights with respect to your contribution worldwide and/or to incorporate your contribution in other works in any media now known or later developed for the full term of any rights that may exist in your contribution, and in accordance with privacy restrictions set out in the BBC's Privacy Policy. If you do not want to grant to the BBC the rights set out above, please do not submit your contribution to bbc.co.uk.
gits.
Thanks for that.

That's pretty comprehensive isn't it? Then again, I can't see many uploading decent sized images to them, you could send them some 640x480's ... which isn't even an option at ukexpert, it's big or nothing there.

cheers,
Andy
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Old 21-06-2005, 12:14   #17 (permalink)
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well the BBC piccies are not huge, i have mailed them and asked for them to guarentee that if they use any of images they will be purely non profit making and will give full credit to me, if they say no, i will pull my entries.(through gritted teeth though)

the full BBC T&C
http://www.bbc.co.uk/terms/
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Old 21-06-2005, 12:30   #18 (permalink)
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This subject is very serious and hold major implications for photographers and their rights, what bothers me is the number of sites, software companies, gallery providers, forums, and even ISPs etc that all have terms and conditions. In this day and age how many of us actually take the time and trouble to read the whole of each set of terms and conditions thoroughly before we tick “accept” or “submit” and yet by these action alone we are basically giving away £1000’s worth of pictures.

It’s difficult as everyday we are faced with contracts and conditions and our time is precious, the sheer number that we face everyday also goes some way to dilute our suspicion and lull us into treating these organisations as being as reasonable and fair as we like to think we are.

I can only see this getting worse and not better, be aware and read things properly is always going to be the advice from the wise. In all truth though, nobody will be surprised to find these agreements catching people out.

A sad reflection of our times
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Old 21-06-2005, 12:40   #19 (permalink)
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Steve this subject is an old one. The reason the BBC have that clause in their T&Cs is because they are responsible in law for the content of their website, they 'must' retain copyright in it. Otherwise if you submitted a picture which they published and they then took it down (for whatever reason) or used it in more than one area of their site you could sue them. It's not done to make money out of your work but to protect them.

I'm not saying these ukexpert people are not chancers just that in most cases this type of clause is a neccessary evil for site owners.
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Old 21-06-2005, 12:48   #20 (permalink)
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I'm admin on a few big forums and actually write (or adapt t&c) but even I can go onto autopilot on other sites and just click the 'i agree' box without looking carefully.
I just wish all photographers at every level would value their work more than they seem to do... even the actual issue of copyright is a total mystery to most, a huge majority thinking they have to actually register their photo with someone to protect it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
This subject is very serious and hold major implications for photographers and their rights, what bothers me is the number of sites, software companies, gallery providers, forums, and even ISPs etc that all have terms and conditions. In this day and age how many of us actually take the time and trouble to read the whole of each set of terms and conditions thoroughly before we tick “accept” or “submit” and yet by these action alone we are basically giving away £1000’s worth of pictures.

It’s difficult as everyday we are faced with contracts and conditions and our time is precious, the sheer number that we face everyday also goes some way to dilute our suspicion and lull us into treating these organisations as being as reasonable and fair as we like to think we are.

I can only see this getting worse and not better, be aware and read things properly is always going to be the advice from the wise. In all truth though, nobody will be surprised to find these agreements catching people out.

A sad reflection of our times
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Old 21-06-2005, 13:21   #21 (permalink)
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That's plain wrong, I'm no professional but I know what it's like to see a shot I took appear on someone elses website without permission. To think someone may then profit from it is maddening. :x
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Old 21-06-2005, 16:23   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steep
Steve this subject is an old one. The reason the BBC have that clause in their T&Cs is because they are responsible in law for the content of their website, they 'must' retain copyright in it. Otherwise if you submitted a picture which they published and they then took it down (for whatever reason) or used it in more than one area of their site you could sue them. It's not done to make money out of your work but to protect them.
Not sure what you mean. They do it so they don't have to pay professionals to supply pics. I can't imagine you'd have any grounds to sue the BBC if you submitted an image free of charge and they took it down after two days, for example.
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Old 23-06-2005, 16:26   #23 (permalink)
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I found this in the picture of Britain thing.

Quote:
The BBC reserves the right to publicly display all entries and to publish any images to promote the BBC, and/or the photography competition. Copyright will remain with the photographer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/apictureof...mp_rules.shtml

Rule 8 in Entering the Competition. Whenever I've submitted my pictures to the BBC I've reminded them that the copyright remains with me.
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Old 23-06-2005, 19:19   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by petemc
I found this in the picture of Britain thing.

Quote:
The BBC reserves the right to publicly display all entries and to publish any images to promote the BBC, and/or the photography competition. Copyright will remain with the photographer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/apictureof...mp_rules.shtml

Rule 8 in Entering the Competition. Whenever I've submitted my pictures to the BBC I've reminded them that the copyright remains with me.
thats interesting, does that over-rule the general T&C of the bbc? i hope so, i still havent had a reply about my rant, but they did spit the dummy out over my squirrel pic, didnt like the blatant use of the words www.thephotographyforums.com in the write up with it!
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