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Old 21-08-2013, 23:26   #1 (permalink)
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Filter Question?

Am now a bit confused, i know that you should not use a polariser with a WA lens mostly for the use of skies in the image but then why is it you read about guys using a polariser along with ND filters for landscape images with WA lenses on to
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Old 21-08-2013, 23:38   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

Might they be talking about a Linear Polarizer filter instead of circular?
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Old 21-08-2013, 23:46   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

Might have got the wrong end of the stick here but the only problem I've had was the polarizer mount was too thick and I got vignetting so I bought one in a very thin mounting
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Old 22-08-2013, 00:01   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

The use of a circular polariser with ND filters in landscape shots with WA lens used
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Old 22-08-2013, 00:19   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

Been taking some ultrawide (17mm end of 17-35mm on FX) with CP - no problem except that I would be happier with reduced exposure. Skies show no discolouring. Nice shallow rim so no discernible vignetting. Used an LP several years on 24mm with film and more recently with digital, again no problem. The only warning that I have seen (I think from Nikon) was that auto-focussing can be confused by using an LP and therefore a CP is required, but as all my lenses that use this filter are MF there is no problem.

BUT I have seen darkening of the skies - turning purple/violet - when the light incidence has a certain very obtuse angle to an ordinary UV filter. I was taking a scene with the Sun out of view but maybe just glancing its rays across the filter. There were no aperture ghosts as you get when the Suns rays fall on a narrower angled lens. I had turned away from the Sun just enough to avoid this. Initially I thought I had blown the sensor or that the lens was faulty, but it only happened for a few shots and so I started to consider angles of incidence which lead me to search for an explanation. I found this interesting information from B&W filters ...


Quote *************************************
IMPORTANT NOTE REGARDING WIDE-ANGLE LENSES.

Please note however that, in contrast to mass-colored (integrally colored) filter glass, the (486M) UV-IR cut filter is based on thin-film technology. More than 30 interference coatings are vapor-deposited on one side, while the opposite side is MRC-coated. In wide-angle lenses, the laws of physics lead to shallower incidence angles for peripheral rays. For geometric reasons these rays have to travel further through the interference coatings than rays traveling vertically through the coatings in the center of the lens. With increasing angle of incidence, this leads to a change in light color towards blue. This effect can clearly be seen by looking at an UV-IR barrier filter from an angle. The color of the reflected light changes, with a similar effect on the light traveling through the filter. The filter is therefore not suitable for lens systems with an angle of view of more than 60
*******************************************


So maybe it depends on the coating technology that is used for the filter, and maybe polarisers exaggerate this.
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Last edited by grease spot; 22-08-2013 at 00:27. Reason: Added summary of situation
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Old 22-08-2013, 00:27   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

That explains it & makes it more understandable for use on lens systems with an angle of view of more than 60, will have to give it a try on 11-16 & 18-70 then GS
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Old 22-08-2013, 10:39   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

I do use very wide angles lenses (12mm on a full frame camera) but do not normally use filters at all. Without going into the potential flare and reduced contrast that may be caused by using filters in some circumstances there are easier ways of controlling the tones in the image. A polarising filter will darken the sky when the sun is at 90 degrees to the camera but you may not happen to be in this position. Also for very wide angle only part of the sky will be darkened which is not the effect that we normally seek. As already mentioned a filter may cause vignetting on a very wide angle lens. If you wish to use a filter in these circumstances then a ND graduated filter may be the answer.

For landscapes, I almost always capture multiple exposures in Raw so can adjust the sky in a single Raw (or use multiple if necessary) to control the tones. This avoids all the potential problems and inconvenience of using filters.
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Old 22-08-2013, 12:19   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

My main use of C/P filters on a wide angle lens ( 17 / 40 ) on full frame, is at car shows to help reduce reflections, I have not noticed any colour shift under those conditions. For the few landscapes I do, I use B&W circular ND Grads,mainly the 2 stop variant, to keep cloud detail. The occasional use (of B&W CP) for landscape has saturated the sky as intended, but again I have not noticed a colour shift, and only slightly increased vignetting.
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Old 22-08-2013, 15:17   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

As stated above, the commonly given reason is that the amount of darkening depends on the angle of camera and sun; and with an extreme wide angle lens enough of the sky will be included to make the difference stand out. Any filter in a thick mount can cause vignetting; it's just that the wider the angle, the more likely it is to do so. In both cases - uneven darkening and vignetting - you can check to see what's happening through the viewfinder, provided you do so at the taking aperture.

Cirsular polarisers are more expensive and slightly less efficient than the linear variety; the only reason to use them is that linear polarisers interfer (on most cameras) with autofocus and metering.

Polarising filters also improve colour saturation which is one reason to use them even if you have no sky showing; so using both a polariser and a graduated ND filter can make sense in the right circumstances.

Frankly, the best way to know what to do is to understand the principles, because then you can work out for yourself not only what's the right thing to do, but why. And understand why people can give conflicting advice depending on the exact circumstances.

What is a ciircular polariser? Well, think of light as a wave motion, and envisage the effect you get if you tie a rope at one end and wave the other up and down in your hand. You'll get a set of peaks and troughs, but only in the plane in which you're moving your arm. Left to itself, light will have the vibrations in every possible plane; a linear polariser cuts this to just one plane. A circular polariser also has only a single plane, but the angle of this plane roates over time - hence circular. The best simple treatment of polarisation can be found in Eugene Hecht's Optics, which has some fine diagrams. William Shurcliffe's 1960s book Polarised Light will tell you more than you probably want to know, but it will explain such oddities as colour casts, particialrly if you stack polarising filters.
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Old 22-08-2013, 18:35   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

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Am now a bit confused, i know that you should not use a polariser with a WA lens mostly for the use of skies in the image but then why is it you read about guys using a polariser along with ND filters for landscape images with WA lenses on to
Maybe that they are the thin type and are designed for wide lenses. I have one and it never shows it's corners, but I have crop sensors and would imagine that they are removed somewhat. I used to use it with a ND #2 which I think is only 1/3 stop I put it on top. This is with infrared only and my results were a sharper detail that lived with the bright highlights you can get. I remember how many people told me you can't do it. I did and now I don't but I have considered a return to some old habits. I just bought a multi coated hoya 400 ND, it seemed like the right thing to do sense I constantly look for a better light. The thin one always worked, the thicker ones didn't.
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Old 23-08-2013, 12:34   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

Thanx guys for taking the time & a lot of info explained, Dave said something that i was on about [ Also for very wide angle only part of the sky will be darkened which is not the effect that we normally seek.] I should of explained the problem a bit better i think, so if this would happen in this case then would you just take multiple images?
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Old 23-08-2013, 12:58   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

I have a split ND on a 4X6, haven't used it in a while but I always have it in kit bag. If your on a tripod I will just hold it in front of the lens not to hard against the front and just move it after positioning in a rotation of small circles trying to cover all areas in the view finder. These would be a timed exposure and I would cover or close the viewer. It gives a nice even effect and edge blend. I have never had the problem you mention with a thin polerizer.
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Old 23-08-2013, 13:44   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

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Thanx guys for taking the time & a lot of info explained, Dave said something that i was on about [ Also for very wide angle only part of the sky will be darkened which is not the effect that we normally seek.] I should of explained the problem a bit better i think, so if this would happen in this case then would you just take multiple images?
In this particular case you could use a graduated ND filter to darken the sky but the disadvantage is that any object which is above the skyline (tree, building) is also darkened. An alternative is to use the graduated filter in LR or Adobe Raw (full version of PS) but this will also darken anything above the skyline. I would almost always take multiple exposures of landscapes so combining the exposures can be a good solution. You could combine the exposures manually by placing them in different layers in PS and erasing parts of layers. This can work well and gives natural colours. You could use HDR software which will automate this. HDR software can be very effective in presenting a larger dynamic range and does not have to be the exaggerated tones and colours that many produce.
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Old 23-08-2013, 20:51   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Filter Question?

Thanx for the advice Dave has happened a few times to me with 1/4 to 1/2 the sky being blue, but was aware of using gnd,s but as you said rock stacks were above the H line with me
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