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General photography questions and answers: Discuss photograph or digital image...At what point,if at all,does a photgraph become a digitally produced 'image'?. For instance,my pleasure,like most of us I guess, ...
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Old 10-12-2006, 22:04   1 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #1 (permalink)
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photograph or digital image

At what point,if at all,does a photgraph become a digitally produced 'image'?.
For instance,my pleasure,like most of us I guess, comes from trying to get 'the shot' at the taking stage.It often means repeated visits to improve on what I got before,hoping for that special light and sky etc.
While I am happy to 'play' with images on the computer [ie doing more than tweaking to make up for the usual dull raw file] I have never printed anything that has had more than the basic corrections in photoshop,more than could be done in a darkroom.It just wouldn't seem 'real' to me.I enjoyed [at times when I did a good one !!] doing B&W printing and gradually moved to Slides where there was no hiding place.It was either there on the film or it wasn't and the projected image showed no mercy!!!.
Bit of a ramble,probably been talked about before as well
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Old 10-12-2006, 22:15   #2 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

i think an image that has had the true scene heavily altered is an image not a photograph....... by that i dont mean cropping sharpening of even chging colours.. i mean altering the structure of the scene to make it something else. an example of which is my lighthouse pic.............. i took a lighthouse next to a golf course and made it a lighthouse on an island surrounded by calm water......... that is an image as there is no water in the true scene...

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Old 10-12-2006, 22:56   #3 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

you are right fiona, I read somewhere exactly that, a photograph can be tweaked but once its really altered it becomes an "image" meaning something thats not real..LOL confusing and also something that will be a topic of debate for a long time .. i think theres was a thread i read on this here on pixalo I could not find it again but it was called ....When does a photograph become an image?.....
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Old 11-12-2006, 00:00   #4 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

Hi Water,
You may find my thread in General Chat interesting:

Quote:
Original photography:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Friends, I hope you do not mind my thoughts on the matter of honest photography.

Many of our members seem to change their original images with cosmetic manipulation. I feel that the purists among us might like to look at real photographs as a distinct section.This would avoid all the titillation that takes away the truth of the original. Editing is one thing, conversion to a creation is another.

I particularly have in mind a section for pictures of Record, those that can be seen as faithful records of fact.

I would like your thoughts, please.
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Old 11-12-2006, 17:09   #5 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

I am in agreement with you all.
That said, my photoshoppe skills are not up to going beyond contrast, colour balance and sharpness, two of which are quite familiar from my dark room days.
I have to say that selective colouring is much easier than splashing photographic dyes on a mono print.
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Old 11-12-2006, 18:11   #6 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

Of course you set your own rules for yourself but I enter Photographic competitions both nationally and Internationally so have to adhere to those rules. Apart from two specialised subjects (Natural History and Photo Journalism) where any editing must not distort the truth, anything goes. The main limitation is that the final image must be based on a photograph and must be your own work. While I am personally happy with this, I can see that the Internations Authorities (FIAP, PSA) and the National Authorities (RPS, PAGB) would have had considerable difficulty in setting definitions. This is partly because there was considerable manipulation of images in darkrooms so it is now too late to start introducing tight definitions and no one would agree where to draw the line. Unfortunately even slide workers are not protected as many digital workers have files converted to 35mm slides. Most national and international slide competitions are now won by digital workers.

Having said all of this, I too am very pleased if I produce a successful (competition wise) picture with little or no editing but I also enjoy success with heavily manipulated images as well. However, the fact is that photographic competitions now have very high standards which has been driven by digital. In all the years I used a darkroom, I enjoyed taking the picture and processing the picture and still do but the range of tools and variations now open to me are almost limitless. My rivals in these competitions also have the same tools available so the ability to see a picture and artistic creativity are now the keys to success; you do not have to be a PhotoShop expert for this but it helps.
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Old 11-12-2006, 19:13   #7 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

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Originally Posted by Dave Canon View Post
Of course you set your own rules for yourself but I enter Photographic competitions both nationally and Internationally so have to adhere to those rules. Apart from two specialised subjects (Natural History and Photo Journalism) where any editing must not distort the truth, anything goes. The main limitation is that the final image must be based on a photograph and must be your own work. While I am personally happy with this, I can see that the Internations Authorities (FIAP, PSA) and the National Authorities (RPS, PAGB) would have had considerable difficulty in setting definitions. This is partly because there was considerable manipulation of images in darkrooms so it is now too late to start introducing tight definitions and no one would agree where to draw the line. Unfortunately even slide workers are not protected as many digital workers have files converted to 35mm slides. Most national and international slide competitions are now won by digital workers.

Having said all of this, I too am very pleased if I produce a successful (competition wise) picture with little or no editing but I also enjoy success with heavily manipulated images as well. However, the fact is that photographic competitions now have very high standards which has been driven by digital. In all the years I used a darkroom, I enjoyed taking the picture and processing the picture and still do but the range of tools and variations now open to me are almost limitless. My rivals in these competitions also have the same tools available so the ability to see a picture and artistic creativity are now the keys to success; you do not have to be a PhotoShop expert for this but it helps.


I hear what you say and having been a Camera Club member I did come across mainly computer created prints in competitions.Our area did not accept,at that time,'digital slides' and I was happy at that because it was a level playing field for a non computer/digital person that I was.
I suppose what I am getting at is that I don't get the same feeling of achievement or satisfaction if I have to do more than the basics in computer to get an image that I feel is a good one [for me].I have a load of what I consider reasonable landscape slides that undoubtedy could be more eyecatching if scanned into photoshop and tarted up ,but they are a pretty faithful representation of what I saw.I am unsure of my feelings on this subject but I know that if I see a good landscape slide I get that feeling of "I wish I had been there ,at that time, to take that shot and feel and smell the place"
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Old 11-12-2006, 20:09   #8 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

And of course film photographers never manipulated their Photo's/images
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Old 11-12-2006, 20:39   #9 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

Well said water, I'm on your wavelength
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Old 11-12-2006, 21:01   #10 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

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And of course film photographers never manipulated their Photo's/images
Well,I have done B&W printing and the obligatory dodging and burning that comes with that territory.However, I know of no amateur that had the skill required to alter a slide [apart from cropping] or even if it is actually posssible.It was possible,I believe,to manipulate print film to a degree but again, I have never met anyone who actually processed and printed colour film at home.
I am not making any judgments on this issue just trying to get a feeling of what forum members feel themselves about it.

Last edited by water; 11-12-2006 at 21:10. Reason: bum info
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Old 12-12-2006, 18:21   #11 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

Frankly, i think all this argument about 'photograph' and 'image' is just arguing semantics. A photograph is an image made with light. If we really just argue about words, 'image' is a super-ordinate of which 'photograph' is a hyponym, thus a photograph IS an image.

As for what could be done in the darkroom, all of the following are possible and done by amateurs and pros alike: dodging, burning, increasing saturation, reducing saturation, increasing contrast, replacing a sky, removal of unwanted artefacts, applying blur selectively, combining images (stitching), etc.

Anyone who has spent a few years doing chemical processing knows that the tools we mostly use in Photoshop are there simply because they allow us to replicate what we did in the darkroom: albeit a lot more easily once you have learnt how to use these tools.

Where do we get the idea that a photograph is only a photograph if it faithfully records exactly what was in a place at a time? If that is the case then all the black and white fans are already 'cheating'. After all, when was the last time you saw a black and white landscape, much less one with sepia toning or whatever? Ansel Adams and other such greats of this genre made their names from reproducing what wasn't there!

To suggest that the only true photograph is one that records exactly what the eye saw in a place at a time is to put a false and unnecessary restriction on what photography is all about. I am interested in the image that a person has produced using their skills with the camera and with any post-processing that has brought out the picture they want to show, be that in a dark room, in a light room or combining images by making a sandwich contact print!!!

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Old 12-12-2006, 19:51   #12 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

I may be showing my ignorance but I thought Sepia coloured prints were a by product of early photographic materials and that toning was to hearken back to those days.No, one never sees a sepia landscape in nature,nor a B&W one but that was all they had before colour film.Of course all film needed manipulating in the processing/printing stage but you could lay the 'blame' for this in the limitations of the film/paper itself to record all colours/tones as they appeared in the scene.I don't think I will ever subscribe to the notion that the only thing that matters is the 'image' no matter how it was produced.
In a 365 day period one could go out and shoot thousands of skies,lochs,mountains,animals,trees etc etc and spend the rest of your days 'creating' new images in the computer.An extreme example?. I agree,but you could do it.But as I mentioned before,part of the process and fun for me is the very challenge to be out in our lovely countryside and to get that picture.I'm not going to do the 'at one with my surroundings' bit but I love my Scottish [insert own choice] scenery and love being out in it ,often on my bicycle, camera or not.If I can I may go back to the same scene cause I know I just might get a 'better' picture under different lighting conditions.Photography is only one of my hobbies and I am not a fanatic but,for me, there is a difference between correcting an image to compensate for sensor/film limitations and unlimited manipulation.You can call me any old names you want,but when the computer becomes more important in the process than me capturing the image and physically experiencing nature at that moment....
Lets also not forget the most important bit,the photographer and his 'eye' for a picture.Surely it takes more skill to actually find and compose the scene in the viewfinder,wait if need be for the sky/clouds/light to play their part and trip the shutter.Each of us will do what feels 'right' and this ramble describes what feels 'right' for me.I am happy to play with images on the forum etc but the few prints of my own, on my and family/friends walls are pretty much 'what I saw' because nature at that moment had presented a scene I thought worth trying to capture.
I apologise to Joseph for starting this thread and will,if I can work out how!!,cut and paste this post over to his discussion and hope anyone replying to my ramble will go to the thread: Original Photography which is covering basically the same ground:
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Old 12-12-2006, 21:15   #13 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

Many thanks Water,

As you can see from my thread, my way of thinking is similar to yours.

I do wish that those members, who kindly and freely give their views and help, would not go into fits when others comment.

After all, we ALL have a point of view.

As most teachers will tell you: It's results that count.
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Old 12-12-2006, 21:45   #14 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

Quote:
Originally Posted by water View Post
I have never met anyone who actually processed and printed colour film at home.
Water, I am surprised that you did not meet anyone at a Club. I started home colour processing films and printing (negatives and positives) in 1979 but stopped in 1997 when I took up digital. Unfortunately, you did not have much choice with colour printing in that it was resin coated paper only. Several colleagues started colour printing at around the same time and thus we exchanged ideas and information as it was very difficult at first to maintain the temperture and stability required. By the mid 80's things got easier as better equipment and lower temperature chemicals became available. Overall it was hard work working for hours in a hot dark shower room used a s temporary darkroom. Because the colour chemicals had a very short life, I used to have to spend 3 consecutive nights on this to use up the chemicals. Irrespective of the content of my pictures, I wasted at least 3 sheets of paper for each final print; so often it looked good in the darkroom but once it had dried the next day you could see the colour cast. There is no way I could go back to this. Using full colour management, I almost always print right first time now on my digital set up.
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Old 12-12-2006, 23:23   #15 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

[QUOTE=Dave Canon;96140]
Quote:
Originally Posted by water View Post
I have never met anyone who actually processed and printed colour film at home.
QUOTE]

Water, I am surprised that you did not meet anyone at a Club. I started home colour processing films and printing (negatives and positives) in 1979 but stopped in 1997 when I took up digital. Unfortunately, you did not have much choice with colour printing in that it was resin coated paper only. Several colleagues started colour printing at around the same time and thus we exchanged ideas and information as it was very difficult at first to maintain the temperture and stability required. By the mid 80's things got easier as better equipment and lower temperature chemicals became available. Overall it was hard work working for hours in a hot dark shower room used a s temporary darkroom. Because the colour chemicals had a very short life, I used to have to spend 3 consecutive nights on this to use up the chemicals. Irrespective of the content of my pictures, I wasted at least 3 sheets of paper for each final print; so often it looked good in the darkroom but once it had dried the next day you could see the colour cast. There is no way I could go back to this. Using full colour management, I almost always print right first time now on my digital set up.

Thanks Dave,

Yes, it was expensive enough without having to throw the chemicals away. The temperatures were a big problem. Only a coal fire, downstairs, in the late 1950s.
I won a cup with a home developed slide but I think the shot was affected by the temperature problems. We did it because it was a challenge and we were keen to do photography.
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Old 13-12-2006, 05:42   #16 (permalink)
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I don't have a problem with any of the tequniques used in digital or wet processes.
If I had a point of view it would be that reportage work lacks the truism it once had.
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Old 13-12-2006, 09:23   #17 (permalink)
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Re: photograph or digital image

I am closing this thread as its the same topic as can be found in the other current thread below. Please continue all discussions in that thread to keep everything on topic and in one place

Original Photography

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