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Old 29-10-2010, 19:29   #1 (permalink)
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Pictorialism -vs- Photography

There is always a burning issue in the fraternity of photographers... whether to manipulate an image or post processing as we prefer to call it. Or to what degree may an image be processed.. In this context I found a term called "Pictorialism" Pictorialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What I am trying to say is .... to be a pictorialist one must be a photographer... the other way round is not possible.... and manipulating a photograph does not make it a lesser form of art ... it is a different form that's all. After all art is a representation of inner feelings often expressed in audio-visual terms. What say you??
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Old 29-10-2010, 20:47   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

I'm a Photographer with mere traces of Pictorialism!
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Old 29-10-2010, 21:43   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

well i personally think manipulating and post processing are different things. and I think im a bot of a photographer and a bit of a pictorialiser ( i think i have invented a new word!)
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Old 29-10-2010, 23:46   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

I would contend that cropping, adjusting exposure, rotation, and changing colour balance don't really count as "manipulation". They are all techniques that could have been performed in the darkroom with film; that's merely editing to get the best out of a photograph.

Beyond that kind of activity, you are in the world of manipulation. Making the photograph look seriously different from the original scene. that is a tremendous skill, but a different one from photography.

I hate the word "art". It has, over the centuries, been abused by people who are good at spinning yarns to justify spending huge amounts of money on twaddle. Give me good solid craftsmanship or technique over art every time.

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Old 30-10-2010, 14:24   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

@ hamacting ....Photography is a form of Art or not ..... lets clear this point first....
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Old 30-10-2010, 16:46   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

Quote:
Originally Posted by basuronin View Post
@ hamacting ....Photography is a form of Art or not ..... lets clear this point first....
For some it is, for others it isn't ... all depends on the photographer's intention.
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Old 30-10-2010, 17:31   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

So long as no one insults me by calling me merely skillful - I'm an Artist!
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Old 30-10-2010, 17:33   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

@ charlotte whatever be the intention..... if not art what else it could be ??
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Old 30-10-2010, 17:48   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

Reportage - nothing artistic about that, nor should it be.
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Old 30-10-2010, 18:07   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

very debatable issue,Right now I am concentrating on photography only..Let others call it with whatever the name.
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Old 30-10-2010, 20:50   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

what medium photography or art .. I hated art at school but always loved photography ...here endeth the lesson ..........
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Old 30-10-2010, 21:02   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

I love art. And I love photography. There is room for both. Some people like to mix and match them, and some don't. There is no right or wrong way to apply art and/or photography, there is only personal preference.
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Old 30-10-2010, 22:59   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

Photography in my opinion can be artistic,I look at some pictures that take my breath away,and then I look at some artists like Tracy Enim and think "She's an Artist ?" different strokes for different folks.

As for working a Picture in post processing,why not,I was no good developing and printing in the old days so sent my films away to a factory where any joe egg could put His interpretation on how light,contrasty or whatever they wanted to do with it,often to my chagrin.
I LOVE digital,it allows me to make up for my sometimes poor technical skills and see the result I envisaged.

I do love digital.......I do not think my pictures are Art....but I do think some people can claim that Honour
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Old 31-10-2010, 07:22   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

@ charlotte....Reportage as in journalism, primarily is to convey an information, apparently it does sounds far from art, but if we look deep, one common factor comes forth... "expression with a significant impact". Anyway I do not think any photojournalist while at work, completely forgot the basic principles of photography and capture images as it is.... as we see in newspapers, or in other print media... but yes I do agree reportage is not art in a crude sense, but an extension of art....

@ towershot ...... of course you have a right to process an image .... after all in photography (be it film or digital) the final impression as we see is always processed, there is a processing software inside every digital camera, and in film camera also, the image is actually processed 50% inside the camera and 50% in darkroom. And there is no reason to think that only camera body and its inside software has the right to process an image. Personally I think if you do not like the processing of an image (as when we use jpeg format in DSLR) take it in RAW format and process it yourself according to your liking.... after all you are the creator, the camera body is only a tool..... A PHOTOGRAPHER CREATES A PHOTOGRAPH, A CAMERA DOES NOT.

To all ... this discussion really became a very enjoyable one... thnx to all... love to have more views and thoughts....
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Old 31-10-2010, 08:50   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

I'd have to agree that PJ (Photojournalism) often carries an artistic element. Take a look at some of the great news shots over the decades and you'll see well constructed images with consideration given to a good composition and lighting - the remainder are viewed and then passed on by

I always find it ironic that anyone debates whether images produced in digital cameras are "true" or "manipulated" and yet at at least 1/4 and up to 2/3rds of all colour is artifically created via interpolation for most P&S, Bridge and dSLR cameras! But I'll acknowledge that we're beholden to the skill of a software engineer to get the colour right - what we do with the result is the art!
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Old 31-10-2010, 14:43   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

Why do some photopgraphers concern themselve with this issue? Firstly, comparisons with darkroom/film is irrelevant because postprocessing and manipulation has been a common feature of film/darkroom and digital. Some of the most manipulated photographs were produce in Hollywood in the 1930/40's and Ansel Adams was quite happy to add skies into his photographs in the darkroom.

If there are any restrictions or guidelines, who sets them? If the photography is for yourself, you can do what you wish. If you are photographing for a newspaper, you will certainly be restricted to showing the truth (you can tidy up the photograph as long as the basic truth is not changed). If you are photographing for amateur competitions your only restrictions will normally be in photojournalism and Natural history categories where again you must retain the truth. For the main pictorial categories the only restrictions are that the image must be based on a photograph and all your own work. I am less qualified to discuss other areas of photography but I am sure some restrictions will apply in some cases.

Photography ranges across science and art and I originally came into photography from science but I am now more interested in the art.
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Old 31-10-2010, 15:31   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

@ Dave canon..... well said....
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Old 31-10-2010, 21:17   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

When I say photojournalism shouldn't be 'artistic', I mean it shouldn't be manipulated since it must always, as Dave said, show the truth. If you call good composition and lighting 'art' then ok, but I tend to think of these more as good technical skills, although they can be used artistically in genres other than reportage. Of course making a pj image pleasing to look at is desirous
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Old 01-11-2010, 08:42   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

Hmmm.... I say why throw away a perfectly good shot because its "Not quite right"....

In my pictures, I have a perfectly good shot of the controls of a steam train, that I knew would look just great with a sepia wash...
I cant do that in the camera. (Well... not mine...)

Should I abandon the shot because I cant get the desired result here and now?...

Is it a "Fix" when you take the shot INTENDING to do some work on Photoplus?...

Post production for me is just one of the tools we use.
If we are to abandon tools like that, because they are not "Art", then I also suggest we throw out the Polarising filter, the zoom lens, the tripod, the ability to change shutter speed.....
We also MUST abandon HDR, right now....

Getting it right in the camera is one thing.
We all know that is sometimes impossible for the effect we wish to get at the end result...
So I say the use of post production tools is just as much art as the picture its self....

Let the controversy continue, each to their own, but right here, right now, without Photoplus 10 on my system, I wouldnt be enjoying photography.

I am by trade a Heavy Goods driver, is it cheating to rely on power steering, ABS power brakes, "kneeling suspension" that allows you to drop the height of the truck to back under a trailer that is too low, that saves you having to MANUALLY wind up the height on the trailer (Which is a HUGE effort..).

Is it NOT driving to have the sat-nag in the cab that replaces a sack full of A-Z's?...

Modern technology has given us the tools to expand our "Art Form" into areas we could only dream of before Digital...

I say we use what is available to the best we can, and let the results speak for themselves.
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Old 01-11-2010, 09:59   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

I really don't care what you call it and how you manipulate it but I do care how you use it! How often have we seen images that're taken using good gear and there's little or no thought given to the technicalities and composition, yet they're then presented as "good" pics!

Don't get me wrong, I'm as guilty as others. I'll often take the easy and lazy option of not changing the lens, not walking 3 paces to the right, not thinking about focus and exposure Even using AF can be a thoughtless cop out!

It's one of the reasons I'll take and use a tripod - not to give a steady platform but to make me think about the subject, consider the composition and determine the exposure - if I can be bothered!

OK, a bit off topic, I'll get me coat!

Edit: of course there's an analogy to GPS - those drivers who blindly follow their instructions and end up in problems. And yes, I've done it as it directed me down someone's drive!
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Old 01-11-2010, 22:29   #21 (permalink)
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:24   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

I think its all about the end result.... if the viewer likes it ....... good it is just a coincidence.... otherwise, its just a matter of POV. AND there's really no need to spend time on how an image has been made.... rather what it is like. And there is no set of rules (generally speaking) on how an image should be made (considering you are doing it for yourself).
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Old 05-11-2010, 22:42   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

I just take pictures and then put my name to them.............
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Old 13-11-2010, 21:13   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Pictorialism -vs- Photography

Quote:
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I just take pictures and then put my name to them.............
Oy, if there's owt going for free I want some to
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