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Old 06-02-2009, 08:41   #1 (permalink)
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Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

Hi,

I need some urgent advice. I have been taking photos for quite some time
now and my hobby has reached the stage where I would like to start
making money from the photos. I am not going to open my own photography
business just yet. I still have many things to do before I can start my
own business. I just want to do this part-time among friends, family and
to make a little pocket money.

One of my friends has asked me to take photos of her children. However
she would like to edit them herself (adding borders, text etc). Not just
that, she also wants to get all the photos printed herself as well; she
said it is cheaper that way.

The reason that she wants to edit the photos is because she may not like
the way I do it. She has her own favourite templates that she wants to
use.

This is my dilemma. Should I let her do this? I am worried if I let her
do all the editing and printing, then everybody else would like the same
thing.

I know all photographers do all the work (shooting, editing and
printing) themselves.

How do I say NO without offending her?

I believe that I retain the copyright to the photos.

Can she legally edit the photos as she intends to?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:55   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

First of all she can legally do anything she wants to/with the photos if you have given her the required permission. By the same token she can not do anything to the photos that you don't give her permission to either. So its up to you to decide on what changes she can legally make. If you don't give her the original files and don't give permission for reproductions etc then legally she can do nothing besides buy the prints from you.

That leads me on to your original point...many photographers will supply the original files to the client but it is always at a much higher price. Once a client has the original file (edited or otherwise) then they can reproduce as many copies with no loss of quality as they wish, you will not get any repeat purchases from the client and thus your earning potential is lost as soon as you hand over the file(s). How much extra for original files..well for me it would be far more than the cost of me taking, processing and printing out the shots originally.

As to how to not upset the client when telling them this...only you can deal with that but some clients really are not worth the hassle. If you keep the relationship professional and explain the business side of it in a way that they can understand and they still don't like the situation then all you can do is move on with a clear conscience.

Running a successful photography business is not as easy as new comers believe, with good quality photography equipment now available for a relatively cheap price there are always people who believe they can step into the role of a photographer and make a living from it. You need to decide on a business plan and stick to it from the beginning, do you just want to do a few shoots and get some pocket money back or do you want to do it professionally and make a living from it? If its the latter then you will not waste time attempting to compete with joe public and his camera or fighting for clients that aren't willing to pay a fair price for a professional photographer. If you are the former, then taking the photos and learning from that as you go without having to bother about the editing and printing can be seen as a huge benefit. Let the client edit the shots as she sees fit but charge her accordingly. It is up to you to tell the client what the costs will be, not the other way around...she may believe it to be cheaper to edit and print the shots herself but only you can tell her if that is really so

Whatever you decide, good luck
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:12   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

Welcome to Pixalo Pumpernickle

If your friend want to do that why does she want you to take the pictures? As soon as you are asked to take pictures I think the client has to accept the images that you provide. They are, after all, not obliged to buy any. Should they want to frame them later, that is a different matter.

The other way of looking at this is that if this is not a client, but a friend that you are just taking photos for as a favour and you are not going to be selling them to her and they are solely for their own use and not for re-sale, is there any harm in allowing this among friends?

I note that you say she wants to do this "The reason that she wants to edit the photos is because she may not like the way I do it. She has her own favourite templates that she wants to use". She is not giving you the opportunity to even try. I return to my first point that if she wants that degree of control tell her to take the pictures too.

Bottom line is that if you are not comfortable with the conditions, don't do it.
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:12   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

First of all you do not want to loose a friend, but you must be honest with her, and explain you are trying hard to make a career out of photography, and that your cameras are not toys they are tools and to take good photographs you have to have good tools so these cost a lot of money, and if they break down they cost a lot to repair,just like a car you would have to pay to take it to a garage, If the portrait session takes an hour then you must charge an hour, then the loading of the pictures on to a disk it also takes time so you charge for the disk, of course you could shoot all your pictures in raw and tell your friend that she will need a special programme to edit these, looking at it in another way it just might save you a lot of time if you just handed the disk over to your friend and say I have checked the pictures and that you should get some good ones off the disc, but dont come back here if you mess up! What to charge is most important to you because you have already said you want to make a little money,so in this case you must charge for your time, and you must charge for the disk, on the other hand just tell her that you are not interested because you prefer to print the selected pictures yourself. Hopefully you can carry on being friends!
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Old 06-02-2009, 10:53   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

Traditionally, most photographers made some money by charging for their time during the actual shoot, and a lot more by (over)charging for prints etc.

The digital era has changed the way that some photographers handle this. I'm not saying that this is right for you, but personally I would make sure that I receive adequate recompense for the time taken to take and process the photos. After that, I am happy to give the client a disk with those images, together with a free licence to use them as they wish. That saves any need to worry about copyright infringement and so on, although I do retain copyright so I can use those images for other purposes if I want.

Of course, if someone wants me to obtain prints or whatever, I'm happy to do so for a fair price, but I wouldn't rely on that as a primary source of income.

Your mileage may vary, as they say!
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:33   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

Pumpernickle firstly welcome.

You have received some good advice and food for thought from the above 4 esteemed gents. My only comment which has already been mentioned is if your friend has the knowledge and skill to edit the photo herself why does she not take them herslef as well .
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Old 06-02-2009, 18:34   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

There is an ancient rule about trade: (s)he who has the money, decides on the music. I often think that the best training for a commercial photographer is five years as a salesman. That way, they'd understand the simple truth that there are a lot more people with cameras than people who want to buy pictures.

You can imagine any rules you like but the cold hard truth is that you need to negotiate the best deal you can when you're selling in an over-supplied market.

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Old 06-02-2009, 19:21   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

I positively encourage people to print them themselves but I do suggest where they can get them printed (and explain why!). Most want to do that as they've come across the ripoff merchants charging silly figures for printing what is essentially just a commodity these days. Now if I got into the complete photography business and invested in RIPs and proper printing I might change my mind.........

As for editing, I'd explain that whilst I've no problem with them choosing a mount, frame and glass, that in the same way an artist wouldn't welcome someone touching up their painting, I'm not happy for anyone to touch up my photograph
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Old 06-02-2009, 20:05   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

Yeh I agree with the last bit Markulous mentions. And I can certainly find myself in Dabhands answer.

A bit of me feels straight away a bit offended. She trusts you to take the photo's but wants to do the rest herself. And then saying it's cheaper that way Nahhh, you can say it in a nice way, but the first thing I would say is that I wouldn't like her to touch up my photo's in any way. You either take the package as it comes, or nothing at all.
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Old 06-02-2009, 20:15   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

Hi there, just thought i would put my two pennysworth in, as you may one day start to run your studio for ex, can you imagine your friend showing your work to someone, with silly frames that have been put on using a cheap piece of software, this could make your quality of work look silly also.

i was once asked to do my wifes brothers wedding, no probs, when i gave him a price for printing " using a pro lab that i have used for many years" he could not believe i was charging him, i was doing the wedding for free as a gift, and the cost was for printing only, he then said " if i could do the pictures and then let someone run up the road to Tescos for prints, and he thought the word pro, was a load of rubbish, and could not understand that he would be getting very high quality prints that would be of a very high standard. i made the the choice then never to do friends or family again, and because of the lack of understanding the other party had as far as quality was concerned, we have never spoke much since because of that situation, lack of understanding where " Quality of work" is concerned" which to me always comes first. so now i never do work for Family or friends. if your quality of work is high, and your final quality of prints are high then your work will sell its self, you would be better explaining to your friend that you have other comittments or something, i would not let any body adjust my work after edits have been done, i offer my customers a viewing of images and talk over any final adjustments, as any adjustments can be talked about with your customers. More often than not, all my edits are done prior to customer viewing images, now and then a little tweak or adjustment might be done at final viewing, ex: a color image may be turned to sepia, or black & white. keep away from cheap software with gimmicky frames, concentrate on your style, and i would advice to you on using a good lab, the lads on here will direct you to a good lab, the cost of prints have come down a lot now digital is here, and on-line ordering as been made easy i can recomend a good lab whilst you are taking lots of images say for a portfolio, the name of the lab is dscolourlabs.co.uk and they are very cheap and very fast turnaround.
hope this as been of some help.
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Old 08-02-2009, 06:44   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

Hi All,

I really appreciate all your kind replies. Thank you so much.

Before I go any further, I just want to say that I am a serious ameture. I shoot for fun and do it for the LOVE of photography. But now I am seriously thinking of making money out of this hobby.

The reason I am not ready to start a proper business yet is there's a lot to learn on the business side of things like taking orders, printing, information packs, invoices, tax, advertising, insurance, etc. I have read somewhere that 80-90% of small businesses fail because they didn't learn the business side of things before starting a business.

My friend is happy with my photos however she prefers doing the editing (adding text, templates, borders etc) herself as she is into this art and graphic stuff. Is this thing really popular among clients nowadays? I may have to get some good quality templates for these sort of clients.

Anyway, she wanted me to take the photos of her kids because she doesn't have all the equipment that I have; she just has a small compact camera. Only recently she mentioned that she would like to get a DSLR camera because she likes the quality of photos taken with a DSLR. However she wants something that is easier to use and doesn't have to tweak the settings too much when she takes each photo.

Sometimes I am a little annoyed that some people can just say they want to get a similar camera like mine so they can take good shots. I don't know why they think that they can just pick up a camera and bam, they'll have good photos. There is more to it than that.

I'm not a pro but have worked my butt off to get where I am now. I am reading every book I can, I ask for advice, and practise a lot because I do intend to go pro one day, whether part time or full time. I do realise that will be a few years away yet. Photography skills are a work in progress. We all have to start somewhere, and we all constantly work on improving our skills.
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Old 08-02-2009, 15:08   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

She wants text and printed "frames" on her photos?

OMG. Stay away or your work will look cheap and tacky
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Old 08-02-2009, 15:17   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

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She wants text and printed "frames" on her photos?

OMG. Stay away or your work will look cheap and tacky
Yeah, totally agree. Why would anyone want to add cr4p printed borders on a photo? A graphic artist with no artistry methinks
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Old 09-02-2009, 11:08   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

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Originally Posted by sejanus View Post
There is an ancient rule about trade: (s)he who has the money, decides on the music. I often think that the best training for a commercial photographer is five years as a salesman. That way, they'd understand the simple truth that there are a lot more people with cameras than people who want to buy pictures.

You can imagine any rules you like but the cold hard truth is that you need to negotiate the best deal you can when you're selling in an over-supplied market.


Sage advice. I'd suggest, if you agree to let her print etc, that you supply her with one high quality print so if she cocks it up or loses quality through cheap processing, she can see that it's her fault, not yours, and can see how the picture should look at it's optimum.
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Old 09-02-2009, 17:35   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

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Sage advice. I'd suggest, if you agree to let her print etc, that you supply her with one high quality print so if she cocks it up or loses quality through cheap processing, she can see that it's her fault, not yours, and can see how the picture should look at it's optimum.
Great idea
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Old 14-02-2009, 02:22   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

Gday, I am as amature as they come, so take anything i say with a grain of salt, but I think too that if she likes your work she likes your work and should let you get on with doing your job if she wants to play around herself there are ways she can do that like hiring the equipment and taking the shots herself,
I also think if she has asked this of you she wasnt too concerned about offending your work style then she should be prepared for you to say no.
Either way good luck, hope it all works out for you
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Old 14-02-2009, 04:51   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

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Gday, I am as amature as they come, so take anything i say with a grain of salt, but I think too that if she likes your work she likes your work and should let you get on with doing your job if she wants to play around herself there are ways she can do that like hiring the equipment and taking the shots herself,
I also think if she has asked this of you she wasnt too concerned about offending your work style then she should be prepared for you to say no.
Either way good luck, hope it all works out for you
couldn't have said it better !!
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Old 15-02-2009, 11:54   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Would you let your clients edit and print their photos taken by you?

I'm in favour of charging her LOTS of extra money for the right to edit but agree with those who are concerned that it may cheapen your images if her editing is kitchy!
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