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Photo Manipulation: Discuss How do you detect image manipulation?...Now a days, people get so much confused and found it difficult to identify which image is Photoshopped and which ...
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:26   #1 (permalink)
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How do you detect image manipulation?

Now a days, people get so much confused and found it difficult to identify which image is Photoshopped and which is not! How could you determine or identify the difference between an original image and manipulated image?
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Old 05-03-2016, 13:18   #2 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Sumi, If image correction is done correctly by someone who is experienced and has expertise then you cant tell.
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Old 05-03-2016, 14:15   #3 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

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Sumi, If image correction is done correctly by someone who is experienced and has expertise then you cant tell.
Possibly - but you can get programs that can.

Even with the unaided eye, you can make a stab at it - see here which was the first link I found. I did find some time ago a comprehensive review of things to look out for, and software, so I assume it's still there for the finding.
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Old 17-03-2016, 22:57   #4 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Because I shoot lots of IR, it is mostly a slight shift to the dark side. Raw,,,,,so I tweek my lightness. When I shoot color I notice I might lose color,,my habits. I have herd here and other places to use PS when you have a good reason. If all I have to do is adjust my lightness that's great and zip apply to all,,that's good. The problem with your question is when you change the size of your picture you need to apply a little sharpening to stay with the original picture. You would have to shoot tiff I would say to get a picture completely untouched. I could be wrong as raw is sceen as a Jpeg so after all that I don't no.
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Old 18-03-2016, 10:21   #5 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

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Sumi, If image correction is done correctly by someone who is experienced and has expertise then you cant tell.
Colin.
I am totally agree with you on that Colin, its the reason there always a debate happen whether an image is Photoshopped or not.
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Old 18-03-2016, 10:22   #6 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

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Originally Posted by StephenBatey View Post
Possibly - but you can get programs that can.

Even with the unaided eye, you can make a stab at it - see here which was the first link I found. I did find some time ago a comprehensive review of things to look out for, and software, so I assume it's still there for the finding.
Oh thank you Stephen for the link, now I have to try it out!
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Old 18-03-2016, 10:24   #7 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

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Because I shoot lots of IR, it is mostly a slight shift to the dark side. Raw,,,,,so I tweek my lightness. When I shoot color I notice I might lose color,,my habits. I have herd here and other places to use PS when you have a good reason. If all I have to do is adjust my lightness that's great and zip apply to all,,that's good. The problem with your question is when you change the size of your picture you need to apply a little sharpening to stay with the original picture. You would have to shoot tiff I would say to get a picture completely untouched. I could be wrong as raw is sceen as a Jpeg so after all that I don't no.
Thank you so much for your suggestion I was asking about how people can differentiate between an edited and original image.
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Old 18-03-2016, 13:40   #8 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

I guess the clone/stamp tool, over sharpening, and white balance would be a few of the tools that would cause a picture to look funny if not used correctly. Hope I didn't confuse the question to much.
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Old 18-03-2016, 14:44   #9 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

If you see a picture which shows Lord Lucan riding out of a flying saucer on the back of Shergar, there's just a possibility that it's been manipulated...

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Old 18-03-2016, 18:59   #10 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

one trick i use is to raise/lower levels in photoshop. often you'll see where edits are.
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Old 18-03-2016, 23:55   #11 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Firstly, does it matter whether photo-manipulation has been used; this is not new and has been done since the early days of photography. I was recently reviewing some of my Club's 150 year history and discovered that a member gave a lecture on how to replace a sky in a photograph in 1928. For most Club photography (which is mainly about art) there are normally few restrictions on manipulation. However, for a few subjects there are restrictions (travel, photo-journalism & nature). Even these restrictions will normally allow tonal adjustments and cropping (for nature focus stacking is also allowed).

On one occasion I had to examine 50 images which had been entered in an international salon in restricted sections for signs of cloning. The method was simply to examine each part of the image at 100% display for signs of changes which is some cases was very obvious. For other issues, it is common to ask for original files for comparison if there is significant doubt.

There is more confusion about manipulated images partly because some use Raw files and have to edit as the Raw data is not an actual image file at that point. For those using JPEG files from their cameras, there is often significant manipulation applied by the camera (colour balance, tonal adjustments, sharpening, lens correction, special effects, B&W conversion and even HDR). If you are in photography for art, then none of this really matters but for certain types of record photography, it does.
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Old 19-03-2016, 13:40   #12 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Shumi, Here is a highly manipulated image, it is a two shot panoramic all the usual alterations were used i.e.. levels, curves, straighten horizon, saturation etc. Then the Heron was taken from a different image set into the picture then copied turned 180 degrees and a reflection made. That and a few other tweaks. Could you tell that this was not real? Have a good look I would be interested in any observations.
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Old 19-03-2016, 18:48   #13 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

I had a look at this in Photoshop just for fun. Firstly, at this low resolution it is difficult to tell anyway and most competitions require larger JPEG's than this. It is also one of the reasons why, if there is serious doubt, the original full sized file is requested. What I can see is many JPEG artifacts just above the skyline which suggests some editing of a JPEG file. Also there are some strange artifacts around the Heron and the reflection. In terms of international competitions it might be questioned if in Nature or travel but would obviously be fine in open categories. Personally I like it and the Heron makes a big difference and is in a good location. I could not see any obvious sign of stitching.
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Old 19-03-2016, 20:26   #14 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

One give away is the reflection, Colin. As reflections are perfect images of the original I would expect the reflected heron to take up a line of sight vertical with its original (unless someone tilted the globe at that moment ), i.e. the head of the heron should be directly above its reflection

Agree it finishes the picture though.
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Old 21-03-2016, 14:20   #15 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Dave, The original images were RAW so with the panoramic and layers it is quite a big file so artefacts are not in the original. I know that in big competitions such things as this are not acceptable as wild life is supposed to be original and I agree with this.
Graham, I take your point about the reflection as you say it is not 100% correct.
The only thing I would add if I had just posted the picture and not pointed out all the additions would you honestly have noticed or was it because you were looking hard to find them?
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Old 22-03-2016, 17:55   #16 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

I would not have normally looked that closely unless it was entered in a nature competition I was responsible for.

Of course, we are now so used to seeing manipulated images that we sometimes fail to realise when they are not manipulated. If you produce a picture of a wicket falling in cricket will bails, stumps and ball flying, most people automatically assume that the image was constructed in some way.
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Old 23-03-2016, 16:43   #17 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Graham, I searched and found I still had the original PSD file and tried a few adjustments with the alignment of the Heron as suggested using the move and free transform tools and it was not possible to have the head in reflection directly under the birds head without having the legs out of line with each other. So maybe the reflection is correct .
By the way the pano is six vertical shots and not two as previously stated I had also forgotten that I had added some more clumps of weed to the foreground water, which no one noticed.

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Old 23-03-2016, 17:50   #18 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Taking a look for me self I see a double tree and the clumps of grass you mention, also a row of dabs up the hill side beyond the grass behind the heron. Years ago I would have let that go. Now having a nervous twitch I could never leave those. It is a wonderful picture and the reflection is perfect.
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Old 24-03-2016, 14:02   #19 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Thanks Boofers, I had not noticed this must have happened in the merging of the pano images, I blame Adobe . Glad you think the reflection is OK personally I can't see anything wrong with it, although Graham might disagree. Still it got a conversation going.
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:20   #20 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

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I guess the clone/stamp tool, over sharpening, and white balance would be a few of the tools that would cause a picture to look funny if not used correctly. Hope I didn't confuse the question to much.
Yes I do agree on that but if the manipulation can be done in a perfect way then it becomes difficult to differentiate the difference!
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:21   #21 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

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one trick i use is to raise/lower levels in photoshop. often you'll see where edits are.
Wow its something I didnt know. Thank you, going to try this for sure
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:24   #22 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

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Shumi, Here is a highly manipulated image, it is a two shot panoramic all the usual alterations were used i.e.. levels, curves, straighten horizon, saturation etc. Then the Heron was taken from a different image set into the picture then copied turned 180 degrees and a reflection made. That and a few other tweaks. Could you tell that this was not real? Have a good look I would be interested in any observations.
Colin.

Hey colinmac thank you for showing the example here as well. I can say, yes I am being able to identify that this image is overly manipulated. Just was not so aware of the technical terms but now got it
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:26   #23 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

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Originally Posted by Dave Canon View Post
Firstly, does it matter whether photo-manipulation has been used; this is not new and has been done since the early days of photography. I was recently reviewing some of my Club's 150 year history and discovered that a member gave a lecture on how to replace a sky in a photograph in 1928. For most Club photography (which is mainly about art) there are normally few restrictions on manipulation. However, for a few subjects there are restrictions (travel, photo-journalism & nature). Even these restrictions will normally allow tonal adjustments and cropping (for nature focus stacking is also allowed).

On one occasion I had to examine 50 images which had been entered in an international salon in restricted sections for signs of cloning. The method was simply to examine each part of the image at 100% display for signs of changes which is some cases was very obvious. For other issues, it is common to ask for original files for comparison if there is significant doubt.

There is more confusion about manipulated images partly because some use Raw files and have to edit as the Raw data is not an actual image file at that point. For those using JPEG files from their cameras, there is often significant manipulation applied by the camera (colour balance, tonal adjustments, sharpening, lens correction, special effects, B&W conversion and even HDR). If you are in photography for art, then none of this really matters but for certain types of record photography, it does.
Thank you so much Dave for explaining some of the insight points here. I can say it depends upon the perspective.
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Old 05-04-2016, 12:37   #24 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Colin, here is what I meant about the reflections. Your image shows the Heron's reflection to be flat, as if the surface of the water did not provide a depth to the reflection. I have added some lines as a guide. Each of the clouds that I have chosen is reflected almost vertically in the water - the slightly non-vertical nature is probably a product of using a number of shots. But given a flat horizontal mirror, the reflected image should appear to come from a similar distance to the original subject, and perpendicular to the surface of the mirror (the normal) as seen by the observer. Otherwise the rays of light do not obey the law that the incident ray, the reflected ray and the normal should all be in the same plane.

If the Heron was a perfect reflection the red lines would follow the same pattern as the black lines, and lay over the green lines, which I have used as my perceived estimate of the Heron's reflection - head and tail. If you look at the reflection of the clouds there is a difference in the reflected image and the clouds, based the different angle of seeing the clouds - directly to the subject or indirectly via the reflection. In the same way the reflected image of the Heron will not be an exact copy of the view you have above the water (unless you were a very long way away), so it is necessary to distort the Heron somewhat to get the inverted image to behave like a true reflection.

Sorry to be so long-winded.

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Old 06-04-2016, 13:54   #25 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Graham, I see where you are coming from with the angles but you have to go to a lot of trouble to see the slight differences. I can understand this if the image is of some scientific or other importance then it should not be manipulated to this extent except maybe a little levels or other minor adjustment. However I was just creating a pleasant landscape so I don't think it matters how much manipulation is done as long as it is done well. Thanks for impute, interesting post so far.
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Old 06-04-2016, 14:06   #26 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

I can't agree with you on this Colin. The heron is obviously not right so far as the reflection goes, and this (whether you realise what the problem is or not) is an unsettling feature of a landscape that overall appears to have been made to be, as you put it, pleasant, and not unsettling. To that extent, it's out of keeping.

If you don't intend the image to be looked at for any length of time, but quickly scanned and passed over, then that's fine. I'm probably harsher because I intend mine to be contemplated rather than scanned, and find it hard to adjust to other intents.
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Old 06-04-2016, 14:27   #27 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Stephen, Sorry you are "unsettled" This is an image taken some years ago and I have posted it on a couple of sites as is and it always got very favourable comments i.e. " The heron makes the picture" etc. It is only since I posted in this subject and pointed out what I had done that any of the faults had been noticed.
This reminds me of a true story I may have told before. A friend of mine plenty of money and very competitive. Has Nikon camera converted for infra red took a series of images for an ARPS panel and printed on an Epson R2400 printer. He flew to Bath or wherever the judging was taking place with his panel and listened to the judges. Came to his panel and one judge went over every image with a magnifying glass and after turned round and said " It's good to see that some people are still keeping up with the darkroom work" . My friend just smiled and nodded he got his ARPS. And everyone was happy.
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Old 06-04-2016, 14:30   #28 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

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Originally Posted by colinmac View Post
Graham, I see where you are coming from with the angles but you have to go to a lot of trouble to see the slight differences. I can understand this if the image is of some scientific or other importance then it should not be manipulated to this extent except maybe a little levels or other minor adjustment. However I was just creating a pleasant landscape so I don't think it matters how much manipulation is done as long as it is done well. Thanks for impute, interesting post so far.
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I agree Colin, for being such a good photographer, as your sceens are always in the thick of interesting landscapes. I used to work long hours and learning was the easiest to have lessons on CD's, very easy to darg around on my 13 inch lap-top. I forgot so much but also learned so much as on Pixalo the little things people have talked about. I remember one line Not forgottenthat said,,,most people see thing in preceptual mode and over look alot of the technical aspics. You can do your best and reach a point of where you are happy and that most times is enough for most people. I try to look for pictures like a professional as a habit but relax most of the time. I remember the lesson on making reflection like you did, and they did show perspective in alignment. Would it be so important to add almost a 3D rendering of this reflection, I say yes but we have forgotten the main rules of adjusting the flat looking bird. It is as if you were looking upward from the river bed and seeing the bird from that lower and closer angle. I guess this all came out of forgotten learning not used very often, but I will try just a little harder to give it correct alignment and a better preceptual overall look as not to draw attention by those who are on top of their game and rightly so point out the flaw as it is.to a degree. I have been thinking for months of getting out my CD's and DVD's for remembering sake. I still believe that manipulation done correctly can not be detected. I have done it so many times and no one ever says a word except about over shapening.
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Old 06-04-2016, 14:49   #29 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

Boofers,, Thanks for your kind comments about my "Normal" images glad you enjoy then. I am not really into heavy manipulation like this one and have only done it a few times but I thought this one suited the subject perfectly and it has got a good discussion going.
My workflow is I keep my camera set at minus a half stop under exposure to retain highlights, shoot in RAW, process in DXO and finish in CS 6 which is usually just a bit of cloning or maybe adding a couple of extra sheep or not. Usually just as seen.
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Old 06-04-2016, 15:59   #30 (permalink)
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Re: How do you detect image manipulation?

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I thought this one suited the subject perfectly and it has got a good discussion going.
Exactly Colin. My comments have nothing to do with the picture itself but "if the image has been manipilated" and my reasons why. I could add the blocked discolourations that are in the mountain/hill in the distance, that affect the wooded areas continuing down into the water. Just signs of manipulation, not a comment on the asthethic content of the image itself.

I know the time it takes to disguise manipulation and I would not want to discourage anyone from it. I have spent hours in the darkroom in the past attempting techniques that I have seen or read about. It can be a lot of fun and very satisfying, and now with digital manipulation there is even more scope. So much so that Photoshop has even become a verb in some languages.
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